AJA #48: Travel Kits, Drop Bar Drama, and Rants About Beeps and Boops

00:00:34 - Cape Epic Packing List
00:15:17 - Leadville Drop Bar Ban
00:25:44 - Aero Without Drops
00:33:53 - Drop Bar Design
00:35:04 - 32-Inch Wheels Debate
00:45:04 - Repack vs. Replace Bearings 

00:00:04 Fatty

The Marginal Gains Podcast is presented by Silca, makers of the finest pumps, waxing systems, and other lubes, cleaning systems, tools, frankly, you name it.

This is an Ask Josh Anything episode, and we are going to get straight to the show by line jumping with me.

Hey, it's tradition at this, folks.

Also, it is at least semi-Silca related and marginally gainy.

Josh, Cape Epic is coming up soon.

So I want you to imagine for a second, you are traveling to wrench for a team and you can only bring one checked bag and a carry-on.

What do you bring and why?

Hottie, you should feel free to jump in too.

00:00:49 Josh

Oh man, that's a good question.

00:00:53 Josh

I'm allowed like a toolbox?

00:00:56 Fatty

I'm going to allow it.

00:00:57 Fatty

What's in the toolbox though?

00:00:58 Josh

Oh gosh, I mean, a little bit of everything.

I'd definitely be bringing a titanium lockering tool and hammer, and because they're lighter, and my titanium chain whip.

Yeah, you can't forget your duct tape.

You got to have a good pair of scissors and a good like folding knife.

I think those things often are forgotten.

And but you know, when you're flying checked luggage, they can fly in the checked luggage.

Super important.

You know, the thing with Cape Epic that and wax drivetrain really helps with this, but I think people don't realize just like how quickly you can destroy a chain ring or a cassette at Cape Epic because of the dust and certainly at the pro level, the speed.

I mean, I think the first time I ever saw it in person, it was like some of the top guys were like, oh yeah, we do a chain ring every two days.

Right, but with one by, you've got these smaller aluminum one by chain rings.

Like they're getting 100% of all the grinding.

And wax drivetrain helps that.

So I would bring my hot melt wax pot and a couple of spare chains in there as well.

And then my employees always make fun of me, like when we're at Steamboat, but I always bring a very wide brimmed hat and they make fun of me. And yet somehow I'm the only one that doesn't get sunburned.

So the joke is on them, like willing to look stupid

not to get sunburned, that's me. So a good hat goes a long way. 

Hottie, what would you throw in there?

00:02:45 Hottie

I was thinking you'd say regarding hot wax, you'd bring it just the bag and then do the sous vide job. Since it's such a long trip and you're kind of, right, you're competing for space and your bag's there, you're going to take the pot.

00:02:59 Josh

Yeah, no, I'd take the pot. 

I think you melt the wax in it.

00:03:04 Josh

Before you go, let it cool.

The brick is in there.

you don't even have to take the lid.

I would, stuff it with your socks or whatever in the suitcase.

Yeah, it's just, it's just more convenient.

00:03:18 Fatty

Something neither of you have brought up that I would absolutely bring is the Silica Shock Pump.

00:03:25 Fatty

Yeah, It's, I mean, for one thing, it is a mountain biking race.

00:03:31 Fatty

And for another thing,

00:03:33 Fatty

Just the envy that thing produces.

00:03:36 Fatty

I don't know if you have taken one of those out on the trail, but when you actually bring that out, it is a little bit awe-inducing.

00:03:46 Fatty

And I think that is worth something, right?

00:03:50 Josh

Yeah, no, I've seen that at events.

00:03:52 Josh

It's A coveted piece.

00:03:53 Josh

I will say, maybe a good way to look at it too, you take, you have your Electrico,

00:03:58 Josh

the ultimate one, which is like, 5 to 6 mountain bike tires worth of inflation.

00:04:05 Josh

But the space that is saving you over any other reasonable travel pump, you can put towards the wax pot.

00:04:13 Josh

So, yeah, that's how I'll justify that in my

00:04:20 Josh

my own mind.

00:04:20 Josh

I'm trying to think of what other just travel essentials.

00:04:23 Josh

Like I have this really slick, I travel a lot, like 150 to 170,000 miles a year.

00:04:32 Josh

Wow.

00:04:32 Josh

Like on my frequent flyer.

00:04:34 Josh

Yeah, I'm almost at 2 million with Delta.

00:04:36 Josh

So like I travel a lot.

00:04:39 Josh

And a good travel power adapter is key.

00:04:45 Josh

I can't even remember the brand of the one I have now, but it's

00:04:48 Josh

got, all seven or eight plugs that clip into the back.

00:04:52 Josh

So it fits into a nice little kind of a foam tray.

00:04:56 Josh

And then it's got USB-A and USB-C, and then I think 2 standard three-prong outlets on the front.

00:05:06 Josh

And so, it just gives you a power hub that, with one outlet, it's like I can charge my phone, my laptop, and Electrico.

00:05:16 Josh

I think it's, I think it's got

00:05:18 Josh

three or four USB-Cs and maybe 2 USB-As.

00:05:21 Josh

And then you can, you plug your three-prong plugged hot melt pot or whatever into that.

00:05:29 Josh

But yeah, that thing goes all over the world with me.

00:05:31 Josh

And man, there's a good power adapter that's pretty key.

00:05:36 Josh

So I'll, you know, I'll say too, I will throw one in the out there for luggage.

00:05:39 Josh

I am so spoiled.

00:05:41 Josh

My wife a few years back bought me this beautiful red carbon fiber Tumi

00:05:47 Josh

roller bag.

00:05:48 Josh

And I have a check-on size and a carry-on size.

00:05:51 Josh

And the level of quality and the smoothness of the rolling of the wheels on these bags is just so next level that whenever I travel with anything else, it's just noticeable.

00:06:04 Josh

Like, oh, man, this just doesn't get over those, you know, the perforations or the little bumps in the, you know, so many of the European airports have those

00:06:14 Josh

like walking paths for the visually impaired and things that are all these like little protrusions in the floor.

00:06:20 Josh

And, the other suitcase gets just stuck in them when it's heavy.

00:06:23 Josh

And, especially if you're racing and you're with teams and there's people with bikes and, we go to Flanders or Roubaix, it's always like a circus going through the airport.

00:06:32 Josh

And so just having a bag that glides effortlessly is so nice.

00:06:38 Josh

So I feel that one is a total splurge and those things are so expensive.

00:06:44 Josh

But once you have one, it's like, it's like Aso's bib shorts.

00:06:48 Josh

Like they're so ridiculous until you try it and then you're like, damn it.

00:06:52 Josh

Like now I'm ruined.

00:06:54 Josh

I'm just like ruined for life.

00:06:55 Josh

Thanks.

00:06:58 Josh

Like I wish I didn't know this.

00:07:00 Josh

And yeah.

00:07:04 Josh

Yeah, it's terrible to admit that.

00:07:08 Fatty

Now I'm going to wear $500 underwear always.

00:07:12 Fatty

What don't you bring?

00:07:13 Fatty

What are things that you see other people at pro Rd.

00:07:17 Fatty

races and, you know, and dirt events as well?

00:07:21 Fatty

I know I started with Cape Epic, but I'm, I want to

00:07:24 Fatty

open this up to other things.

00:07:26 Fatty

You see mechanics at pro races all the time.

00:07:30 Fatty

What do they bring that they are never getting out?

00:07:33 Josh

It's a hard one because I think, you know, like everybody, and not at all to pick on them, but you think of like all the stuff that like the Abby tools makes, right?

00:07:42 Josh

I mean, they're this beautiful stuff in these boxes and you know, everybody's box, everybody's got that beautiful derailleur hanger alignment tool.

00:07:52 Josh

And, realistically, I mean, that's a tool you're using, very rarely, right?

00:07:59 Josh

after a crash or whatever.

00:08:00 Josh

But, I mean, certainly like in the world tour, my God, like you almost never align a hanger.

00:08:08 Josh

If it gets bent, it's getting replaced.

00:08:12 Josh

now we certainly have problems with

00:08:15 Josh

frames, and I will say like, we have this with our own derailleur hangers, they're printed and then they're laser scanned, like they're perfectly flat and they really, you really can't align them.

00:08:24 Josh

But most frames aren't very straight.

00:08:26 Josh

And so like a lot of the world tour frames, I think we see this a little bit with some of the cross-country stuff as well.

00:08:34 Josh

But the world tour frames have been like, they'll, in the pre-season, we'll actually go with the teams and go in and actually like do a paint facing, because it's the paint generally that's making it not like parallel and planar.

00:08:46 Josh

that voids the warranty, so I'm not recommending customers do that.

00:08:51 Josh

But that's a tool that I, you can look around and if everybody's got their boxes open, there's like 20 derailleur hanger alignment tools that are probably, whatever, a kilogram apiece, and you're going to use it four times a year.

00:09:05 Josh

And so I think the hard one is like, it's like an umbrella, right?

00:09:09 Josh

Like you stand there and you're like, well, **** if I ever needed to use one of these, there's like 10 other dudes

00:09:14 Josh

here who have them.

00:09:15 Josh

And so I'm good.

00:09:17 Josh

But then at the same time, it's probably that the one time you need to use it, nobody's got, nobody's got one.

00:09:22 Josh

So, but there's, there are a lot of tools like that, are, they're just used so infrequently, but are really large and heavy.

00:09:32 Josh

So I, I'm not going to say don't bring it.

00:09:37 Josh

That's such a hard one.

00:09:38 Josh

I will add umbrella, like the clever little expandy foldy umbrella.

00:09:44 Josh

I always bring one of those, especially like the early spring races and stuff in Europe, because you just never know when you're going to get stuck needing to do something, whatever, side of the road, outdoors, and it's, you think, oh, this will take 15 seconds, and 15 minutes later, you're like, I wish I had an umbrella.

00:10:03 Hottie

You're bringing a work stand, right?

00:10:04 Josh

Oh, depends what the deal is.

00:10:06 Josh

Like, yeah, I mean, it's nice you travel with

00:10:09 Josh

like with World Tour teams and they've got them.

00:10:11 Josh

So I never travel with a work stand.

00:10:13 Josh

But Cape Epic, if I was going somewhere, yeah, I'd have a work stand.

00:10:18 Hottie

Yeah, you're going to bring one, right?

00:10:19 Hottie

Because my Feedback Sports has a carrying pouch in it.

00:10:21 Hottie

I could pack it down and...

00:10:23 Hottie

and take it with me.

00:10:23 Hottie

And I think they make even, they make travel style ones as too, that they even, they get a little more compact.

00:10:28 Hottie

And then you can put your Hero Bell somewhere.

00:10:30 Hottie

I would imagine you'd want to bring that.

00:10:32 Josh

I mean, I would travel with a fork mount style stand.

00:10:36 Josh

Okay, good.

00:10:37 Josh

For that, yeah, because there's so much more compact and light and easy.

00:10:40 Josh

And, you know, really 90% of what you're doing is cleaning the bike and then adjusting the derailleur and the

00:10:48 Josh

downside of the fork mount stand is like, you can't do headset work, you can't do front brake work.

00:10:54 Josh

You know, there are some limitations, but it's probably a third smaller and a third lighter.

00:11:02 Josh

And you find a way.

00:11:05 Fatty

So it's going to go without saying that you're going to have some kind of torque wrench.

00:11:09 Fatty

And this is probably verging on

00:11:13 Fatty

Tell us about your favorite religion.

00:11:14 Fatty

Torque wrench.

00:11:15 Josh

I have torque fingers.

00:11:16 Josh

I feel exactly.

00:11:18 Fatty

Do you really?

00:11:20 Fatty

Can you tell Newton meters by feel?

00:11:23 Fatty

No, what torque wrenches do you bring for?

00:11:27 Fatty

I know there are ones that you can adjust and so forth, but I'm guessing if you can travel with a really pro torque wrench, what do you bring?

00:11:38 Josh

So I still love our little

00:11:41 Josh

Silca tight torque thing that gets you to 8 Newton meters and it's really super, super accurate.

00:11:48 Josh

And then I also have a CDI, which is a division of Snap-on.

00:11:52 Josh

They've got some really high quality products and I travel with one of those for, I can't remember what mine is.

00:11:59 Josh

It's like 10 to 40 or 10 to 42 or you know, whatever.

00:12:05 Josh

something like that.

00:12:06 Josh

And so that kind of gives you the whole range and you got to be careful, got to be careful with traveling with torque tools and the big ones are, you got to unload the spring every time you pack it up.

00:12:20 Josh

And which I see a lot of people not doing.

00:12:22 Josh

So there's certainly some kind of rules and care that have to be taken around that.

00:12:27 Josh

And then, you know, you're starting to see more

00:12:31 Josh

digital torque wrenches, but it's funny, like we actually tried to introduce digital torque wrenches in our shop here a few years ago, just for production pieces like the Herobel has multiple things that get torqued in its assembly.

00:12:45 Josh

And the problem with them is that when you get to your prescribed torque, you can watch it and see the number growing, but then when it hits there, it beeps.

00:12:54 Josh

And the employees were like, after three or four days, just like about to kill each other, like, for ****** sake, that's like, stop it.

00:13:02 Josh

Just so, like, I mean, and so we've actually like banned the digital torque wrenches in the building because they're just so divisive, because everybody drives everybody else nuts with it.

00:13:14 Josh

which is terrible to say.

00:13:15 Josh

I mean, it's kind of like my current pet peeve, right?

00:13:19 Josh

Is this like this radar thing that everybody's riding with.

00:13:22 Josh

Like, for ****** sake, people, like that, you're just ruining the group ride.

00:13:27 Josh

Like, I don't even, I won't even go on the group ride anymore because I just can't handle all the ******* beeping and the noise.

00:13:34 Josh

Oh, Jesus.

00:13:35 Josh

And, you know, oh, my Wahoo, it beeps at me 17 times to tell me I'm on a hill.

00:13:39 Josh

Like, oh, thanks.

00:13:40 Josh

I never would have known we're climbing a hill.

00:13:43 Josh

if that hadn't beeped at me and been like, you're on a hill, like, **** God, I just...

00:13:47 Hottie

Let's let Shimano interrupt this program, this rant real quick, because Shimano is a great supporter of the Marginal Gains Podcast.

00:13:54 Hottie

Most of us know Shimano for its group sets, Ultegra, Dur-Ace, XT, XTR, GRX.

00:13:59 Hottie

They do not have a head unit, by the way, so good for Shimano.

00:14:03 Hottie

Little known fact about Shimano is it makes a whole host of other products, wheels, shoes, saddles, and sunglasses, because

00:14:13 Hottie

You got to be cool, right?

00:14:14 Hottie

Eyewear is an integral part of riding, which is why Shimano has put a lot of engineering into the space, most notably with its lenses.

00:14:22 Hottie

Shimano calls this technology RideScape.

00:14:25 Hottie

Basically, what you have are lenses that are meant for specific conditions.

00:14:29 Hottie

There are tints for tarmac trail, gravel, overcast or bright conditions,

00:14:34 Hottie

It may sound like marketing mumbo-jumbo, but it's not.

00:14:37 Hottie

Ridescape really does help define the road, the single track, or the gravel ahead.

00:14:42 Hottie

You can check out Shimano sunglasses at bike.shimano.com, and you should, because like the one-hit wonder Timbuck 3 told us, the future's so bright, you gotta wear shades.

00:14:52 Hottie

I'm Michael Hotten.

00:14:53 Hottie

I do most.

00:14:54 Josh

Hey, can we ask, can Shimano polarize lenses in both axes so that people's computers are just black?

00:15:03 Hottie

That's the new Ridescape lens, right?

00:15:05 Josh

That's the new Ridescape.

00:15:06 Josh

Like, I can't read my computer anymore.

00:15:09 Josh

Good.

00:15:10 Hottie

All right, speaking of rants, we're going to jump into the argument that has been blowing up on blogs, social media, bike rides, and elsewhere.

00:15:17 Hottie

And this time, Josh,

00:15:18 Hottie

It wasn't you causing the bike roll to go nuts.

00:15:22 Hottie

This time, this time it was lifetime and its new rule banning drop bars at one of its iconic races, an event Faddy and I know very well, and that is the Leadville Trail 100.

00:15:34 Hottie

Now what we intend to do with our little discussion here is hopefully steer it in a new direction.

00:15:40 Hottie

With drop bars out of the equation, what could a marginal gainer do to get back the arrow advantage we lost?

00:15:47 Hottie

We'll get to that AJA in a minute.

00:15:50 Hottie

Now Lifetime said they are making flat bars and riser bars mandatory in the name of safety and course compatibility.

00:15:58 Hottie

We also have learned that it was the LTGP, the Lifetime Grand Prix riders, led by five-time winner and Leadville record holder Keegan Swenson who made the big push for this change.

00:16:09 Hottie

In addition to safety, the riders felt like the increasing use of drop bars on mountain bikes was putting pros with fewer resources

00:16:17 Hottie

to make such a change at a disadvantage.

00:16:21 Hottie

And before we get to our constructive conversation, and we'll be constructive, I wanted to relay a few things I learned by simply doing what apparently no one else did, speaking of rants, hello media, and that is to reach out to Lifetime with a few questions about why they made this rule.

00:16:37 Hottie

Michelle Duffy is our contact at Lifetime.

00:16:39 Hottie

She is one of the main people running the Lifetime Grand Prix.

00:16:42 Hottie

So we hit her with a few questions regarding this new rule change.

00:16:46 Hottie

First, we asked for clarity on whether this new rule was for safety or rider fairness or both.

00:16:52 Hottie

Michelle said, in fact, it was for both.

00:16:54 Hottie

She said, to their surprise, Keegan, Payson McKelvin, and others almost unanimously agreed that the drop bar ban was needed.

00:17:02 Hottie

One element was resources, yes.

00:17:04 Hottie

The other was around the precedent that elite riders set for amateurs.

00:17:09 Hottie

And the elites agreed that yes, the drop bars are not great for them as far as safety, but they are certainly a risk for many amateurs as well.

00:17:17 Hottie

This past year, Michelle said they saw a major uptick in the volume of riders using drop bars and taking increased risks both at the stage race and at the Leadville Trail 100.

00:17:28 Hottie

Second question, many have pointed out,

00:17:31 Hottie

since the ruling that at Leadville, there's a host of other safety issues not connected to drop bars, like a lengthy amount of fast two-way traffic, chaotic feed zones, and no writer skill screening for entry.

00:17:44 Hottie

We asked her if these were, or any of these other questions were part of their discussion regarding safety.

00:17:50 Hottie

Michelle said there will be more on safety at Leadville, so stay tuned.

00:17:55 Hottie

This is not their only safety answer.

00:17:58 Hottie

For the drop bar rule, though, they said the announcement was needed now so that riders and athletes could start making equipment choices here about 8 months out from the Leadville Trail 100.

00:18:09 Hottie

So that's why they went for the drop bar now, but could be some more safety rules coming.

00:18:13 Hottie

to the Leadville Trail 100.

00:18:15 Hottie

Third question, the drop bar ban has brought even more attention to the position used by women's winner and record holder Kate Courtney, who at times put her hands on the fork crown to lower her upper body.

00:18:28 Hottie

We asked her, isn't this more a dangerous position than drops?

00:18:31 Hottie

And will that position continue to be allowed?

00:18:33 Hottie

And Michelle said, at this time, yes, that position, the fork crown holding position will still

00:18:39 Hottie

be allowed, while drop bars will be banned.

00:18:41 Hottie

Finally, we asked her about the arrow bar ruling at Unbound, which went down a few years ago, where they banned the pros from using arrow bars, but allowed citizen racers to continue to use them.

00:18:51 Hottie

Why not do the same at Leadville?

00:18:53 Hottie

And Michelle answered, this rule change, the drop bar ban, isn't about the pros specifically.

00:18:58 Hottie

It is about protecting the full field, and we will apply the full ban to pros as well.

00:19:05 Hottie

Okay.

00:19:06 Hottie

So that was some of the explanation we got from Lifetime on why they went with this ban.

00:19:10 Hottie

I want to get you guys talking on this.

00:19:12 Hottie

So Fatty, you know this race better than anyone on the show and most people on the planet for that matter.

00:19:18 Hottie

And Josh, we're going to need a new way to narrow up.

00:19:21 Hottie

And by the way, no bar ends mounted inboard of the grips, Josh, that has previously been banned by Lifetime.

00:19:27 Hottie

So

00:19:28 Hottie

You want to think about that before coming up with your solutions for no drop bars at level.

00:19:33 Hottie

Okay, guys, sorry to rant.

00:19:34 Hottie

Sorry to go.

00:19:35 Hottie

Sorry to go so long.

00:19:36 Fatty

As the one of the three of us who was actually out there on the course last year during the race, I want to bring up the correlation is not causation.

00:19:49 Fatty

thing.

00:19:50 Fatty

I saw, and I'm out there in the middle of the race.

00:19:54 Fatty

I'm not at the front with the LTGP folks, not at the very, very back with the 12 hour plus folks.

00:20:02 Fatty

I was out there with the 10 hour group and I saw more wrecks than I have ever seen ever in the Leadville 100 last year.

00:20:10 Fatty

But you know, as I went by, I don't think that I saw any of them

00:20:18 Fatty

with drop bars.

00:20:19 Fatty

I think that we were saying, oh, look, everyone's using drop bars and there were a lot of wrecks.

00:20:24 Fatty

The reality is last year, the course was just in dry, dusty, terrible shape that had been really used without a lot of rain.

00:20:36 Fatty

Lots and lots of people pre-ride that course.

00:20:38 Fatty

And of course, there is the stage race 2 weeks before.

00:20:43 Fatty

Usually there's, you know, there's almost daily

00:20:47 Fatty

afternoon showers in Leadville, and there just hadn't been that much.

00:20:51 Fatty

The course was bad.

00:20:53 Fatty

People were crashing.

00:20:55 Fatty

I don't think it was a drop bar thing.

00:20:57 Fatty

Lots of people don't know, you know, how to handle that kind of terrain.

00:21:02 Fatty

They don't live there.

00:21:03 Fatty

And so they were crashing.

00:21:04 Fatty

I don't think it had anything.

00:21:06 Fatty

Well, no, I shouldn't say it didn't have anything to do with drop bars, but a lot of the crashes, probably the majority of them didn't have anything to do with drop bars.

00:21:17 Hottie

I asked specifically, I asked Michelle too, if there were specific incidents they cited as a reason that drop bars were more dangerous, that they needed to get rid of them due to a safety.

00:21:26 Hottie

And she didn't have a direct answer to that, only that they saw an uptick in the use of drop bars and they felt like they wanted to get out in front of this before they had, you know, even a wider use of drop bars.

00:21:37 Hottie

And then they're having to turn even more people back or do it at a late date, right, to get people to change out their bars.

00:21:44 Hottie

So

00:21:45 Hottie

I was in the feed zone.

00:21:46 Hottie

The main thing we saw in the feed zone, the worst crash of all we saw in the feed zone wasn't really related to drop.

00:21:53 Hottie

It wasn't related to drop bars.

00:21:54 Hottie

It was involving a pro racer on flat bars.

00:21:57 Hottie

And that was because the camera crew walked out in the middle of the feed zone and cut off John Gaston.

00:22:02 Hottie

He was on the ground.

00:22:03 Fatty

We all watched that a million times.

00:22:06 Hottie

But again, I think Lifetime is, you know, they're going to they're going to address more safety issues, whether the feed zones are not or other things.

00:22:14 Hottie

In the future, they, again, they wanted to get out in front of the equipment issue, before they got too late in the game as far as bike setup goes.

00:22:22 Josh

Yeah, I mean, I think they're in a tough spot, right?

00:22:25 Josh

I think to Fatty's point, you know, you've got this data point that's clearly, I think from everybody I've talked to is not a causation thing at all, but it's, hey, drop bars came in and we had more crashes.

00:22:38 Josh

Well, not, you know, it's

00:22:41 Josh

You think back to the history of roadside, right?

00:22:42 Josh

Like the Spinacci getting banned.

00:22:44 Josh

the Spinacci came out and all of a sudden we had all these crashes.

00:22:48 Josh

Like, well, yeah, we also started with some of the early better drug testing and the guys were less doped up than they had been before.

00:22:57 Josh

And now fatigue is much higher.

00:22:59 Josh

And oh, and we had record crosswinds and they went through northwestern France with some of the windiest crosswinds in history.

00:23:06 Josh

And, you know, but let's forget about all that.

00:23:08 Josh

It must be this thing we can tell people not to do.

00:23:12 Josh

But yeah, I mean, I think they're in a tough spot.

00:23:13 Josh

And I think, I can certainly understand their worry about certain amateurs riding that.

00:23:21 Josh

Because I think there's definitely a level, I would say from what I've seen in my, I don't know, history of this from both the pro athlete side

00:23:30 Josh

and the consumer side, quite often the consumer taking some of the most extreme risks is the consumer who's least prepared to take those risks, right?

00:23:42 Josh

back in my zip days, you'd get people called, they'd be like, well, I just don't understand why you have a weight limit on the 202s.

00:23:49 Josh

I'm 280 and I need to do them as much as possible to make my bike as light as possible because I'm so big.

00:23:57 Josh

You're like, oh man.

00:23:59 Josh

Hard no.

00:24:01 Josh

You're not allowed to buy them.

00:24:04 Josh

So I totally feel that for them.

00:24:07 Josh

I do think it, like you said, it totally opens the doors to alternate means, like holding the fork crown, holding the cables, right?

00:24:18 Josh

You see some of that where guys kind of do like a puppy paw and they kind of like hook their thumbs around the brake cables.

00:24:26 Josh

And those are clearly both way, way, way more dangerous than any position you would have on a drop bar, because a drop bar is at least still a bar.

00:24:36 Josh

Yeah, I mean, I joked here when it came out that you've ever seen like, was it the Ankole cattle?

00:24:45 Josh

You ever seen like, it's an African cattle that has these like amazing big, look it up, it's like A-N-K-O-L-E, these amazing, big, beautiful,

00:24:53 Josh

sharp horns, but I said, we should 3D print some titanium and Koli cattle horns and like bar ends that clip onto the upper part of the fork stanchions.

00:25:05 Josh

So we give you a better grip for that hand position and then some real impaling power.

00:25:14 Josh

You know, every rule like this is going to have some

00:25:20 Josh

repercussion and almost certainly some unforeseen repercussion.

00:25:23 Josh

We've certainly seen that when they do stuff in pro Rd.

00:25:27 Josh

racing.

00:25:28 Josh

But, I think from a liability and all the other perspectives, if I were them, I, can't say that I wouldn't have made, I wouldn't have made the same call.

00:25:41 Josh

I guess back to the marginal gains piece of that, you know, what do you, what do you do?

00:25:44 Josh

I mean, I think you just go to narrower flat bars.

00:25:46 Josh

And so I think this year we probably see

00:25:48 Josh

narrower bars with longer stems and lower stems.

00:25:55 Josh

I mean, you think of this sort of almost like formula we've developed for road racing, right?

00:26:00 Josh

I like shorter crank, essentially like rotate your body forward around your feet.

00:26:06 Josh

So saddle forward, saddle tips down a little bit, bars go way longer, bars go much narrower.

00:26:13 Josh

I mean, every rider I think I ever, we've ever done this with in the tunnel, it's like, boom, 20, 25 watts instantly.

00:26:21 Josh

And I think you're just going to see more, I mean, some guys, Dylan, Keegan, they're already kind of there because they work with us as well.

00:26:29 Josh

But I think you're going to see more of this, you know, as the bars go narrower, you can afford to go longer in your stem.

00:26:35 Josh

And so you just get this sort of compounding effect of the aero.

00:26:38 Josh

And it, you know, it's still, I mean, I was a 90s mountain bike kid.

00:26:41 Josh

Like we,

00:26:42 Josh

Our bars were, we would literally, I love like when I was in Nashville, like Percy Warner Park was like the greatest place to ride and there was this one set of trees and we literally had like measured whatever that was and everybody knew like that's what you cut your bars to.

00:26:58 Josh

And you meet people from like Pennsylvania or whatever and they were all doing the same thing.

00:27:03 Josh

And I mean, I go to mountain bike events now and it's like, good Lord, like when did mountain bike handlebars become like 1.6 meters wide?

00:27:10 Josh

Like, I mean,

00:27:12 Josh

It's crazy how wide these bars have gotten.

00:27:17 Josh

And, there's really no need for them to be wider than Rd.

00:27:22 Josh

bars if you're trying to go fast, right?

00:27:25 Josh

I mean, I get, you know, you're these like downhill enduro guys and flow trails and, you know, **** who cares?

00:27:32 Josh

Just get comfortable and feel like you've got

00:27:34 Josh

control of the bike, but I mean, if you're if you're Keegan, I mean, there's no reason your mountain bike bar should be wider than like 40.

00:27:40 Hottie

I have a set of folks, anybody who in Leadville is here, I have a set of carbon bars, 600 mills that I raced at Leadville.

00:27:47 Hottie

That was my first set of bars at Leadville.

00:27:49 Hottie

600 mills, nice and narrow, but they work great.

00:27:52 Hottie

I had no problems controlling the bike with that.

00:27:54 Hottie

We saw some folks who did not go to drops do some interesting alternative style flat bar choices.

00:28:02 Hottie

Alex Howes had this really incredible

00:28:04 Hottie

set up using a set of bars from Soma.

00:28:07 Hottie

They're called the Gull Wings, kind of like a mustache bar.

00:28:10 Hottie

They sweep back.

00:28:11 Hottie

They allowed him to put Rd.

00:28:13 Hottie

levers on the right at the right at the big curve before it dips back towards the stem.

00:28:19 Hottie

And he was able to kind of simulate with that the hood's position where you get low on your hood's position, right?

00:28:27 Hottie

Kind of that semi arrow position and semi

00:28:30 Hottie

TT position you can do on a set of drop bars.

00:28:32 Hottie

It allowed him to do that, yet he technically had flat bars of the Soma Gullwing.

00:28:37 Hottie

And Cam Jones, who ended up winning the LTGP, went really extreme with flat bars.

00:28:43 Hottie

He had this one-piece bar system from Syncros with a minus 40 degree angle stem and 700 mils wide.

00:28:50 Hottie

He's a big guy.

00:28:50 Hottie

So that got him super low, right?

00:28:53 Hottie

So I mean, I think that's the kind of extremes where

00:28:57 Hottie

we're going to start talking about.

00:28:58 Hottie

Like the pros may have said, hey, we don't want drops, but what are they going to do next?

00:29:04 Josh

Oh, wait, I think you're going to see, and I know this product is in the works because 32 inch wheels are coming.

00:29:12 Josh

And so you look at these bikes with the 32 inch wheels and you need some bazonkers stem configurations to get your hands in the right spot, right?

00:29:22 Josh

And so I think there's, but then those

00:29:24 Josh

bars and stems are going to give people some interesting options.

00:29:27 Josh

Like you take that and put it on a 29er and now you can get to some pretty wild positions.

00:29:34 Fatty

Guys, you are going to be so excited to know that our listeners have questions about drop bars as well.

00:29:40 Fatty

And I'm going to actually play one of them right now.

00:29:43 Fatty

This is a voicemail that just came in to the marginal gains hotline, 317-343-4506.

00:29:50 Fatty

This is from our buddy Oliver in Switzerland.

00:29:53 Speaker 4

I have a question regarding.

00:29:55 Speaker 4

handlebar shapes and to put it short, are drop handlebars actually the best design or is it just a UCI regulation that forces pros to ride them?

00:30:09 Speaker 4

I stumbled upon an old catalogue of Bridgestone bicycles where they show

00:30:17 Speaker 4

cyclocross racer on a neater mustache bar.

00:30:20 Speaker 4

The rider looks very aero on that bar, and I was wondering, would that be a more efficient, more aero, faster bar?

00:30:28 Fatty

So there you go, Josh.

00:30:30 Fatty

I know you have a bifurcated brain here.

00:30:34 Fatty

You've got half a mind that loves the classic Rd.

00:30:39 Fatty

look, and then you've got the cold, hard engineering side that knows what is actually effective.

00:30:46 Fatty

So for Oliver's question here,

00:30:47 Fatty

I want to ask the left brain, Josh, do drop bars really make sense?

00:30:54 Josh

Yeah, they do.

00:30:55 Josh

And I'll say, first of all, I mean, Bridgestone, like XO1, XO2, mustache bar, city bike, like that's still like in the dream pantheon, right?

00:31:07 Josh

I mean, they just, they had a couple years.

00:31:09 Josh

They were, God, they were making such beautiful stuff.

00:31:11 Josh

And we all just wanted it so badly.

00:31:15 Josh

But that was a beautiful bike and really a beautifully done bar stem setup.

00:31:22 Josh

I mean, it still looks modern and cool today.

00:31:25 Josh

Well, and heck, I mean, Fatty was just talking about there's some modern products that are kind of in that vein.

00:31:30 Josh

Yeah, I mean, there's so much potential there because you can, with the Moustache Bar, you can get a comfortable,

00:31:41 Josh

kind of upright position and a comfortable reached position that's naturally like a good bit narrower.

00:31:49 Josh

The challenge of a mustache type bar is because your hands are flat, your elbows go out, right?

00:31:55 Josh

And so you kind of do this like chicken wing thing.

00:31:59 Josh

And I think we've talked a little bit about that with like some of the super narrow bar setups that like,

00:32:05 Josh

as you're going narrower, your elbows are coming in and in and in.

00:32:09 Josh

And then at some point, the angle becomes weird and then the elbows go out again.

00:32:13 Josh

And that's where you see a lot of the bars now are flared.

00:32:16 Josh

Like the drop isn't vertical.

00:32:17 Josh

It's a, you know, like not quite a 45 degree angle, but it's, there's a lot more angle there.

00:32:25 Josh

You know, I think there's various forms of the mustache bar that do have some sort of drop, some sort of angle like that to help pull those elbows in.

00:32:33 Josh

But ultimately, I think the,

00:32:35 Josh

the challenge with that type of bar is the transition from into like an out of the saddle power position.

00:32:44 Josh

Like there's not a good, there's not a good sprinting or like aggressive climbing position with those bars.

00:32:55 Josh

I think that a lot of people find like you're either, your hands are either too far back and close to you or

00:33:02 Josh

they're too far out and then too narrow out where they are, to kind of find that, I would say like the equivalent of the on the hoods, right?

00:33:12 Josh

You mean, or when you're really aggressive that in the drops.

00:33:16 Josh

And so, yeah, I think the drop bar is kind of solving for a couple of those problems by really, it's really giving you

00:33:23 Josh

quite a lot of, you kind of have your on the flats narrow, you're on the flats wide.

00:33:27 Josh

Like I'm a big fan of like the top upper from the flat to the drop transition, like poking you right in the palm, you know, is a good one.

00:33:37 Josh

You've got so much control and ability to put the power down when you're on the hoods.

00:33:41 Josh

And then you can really put the power down in the drops.

00:33:46 Josh

And with that lower hand position, you also have a little bit less

00:33:53 Josh

kind of direct control over the steering in a way that like from in a negative way.

00:33:57 Josh

And so, you can really get insane in the drops from a power perspective and you're just less likely to crash yourself.

00:34:06 Josh

So yeah, I think for a city bike and just for like elegance, mustache bar all the way.

00:34:15 Josh

But I would say we're probably never going to quite get away from some form of the drop bar.

00:34:22 Josh

On Rd.

00:34:22 Josh

bikes, or on I would say racing bikes, Rd.

00:34:26 Josh

and gravel, because it just offers a lot more than you might initially just see as two or three hand positions.

00:34:33 Hottie

Yeah, I just looked at the Alex Howes bargain, that goal wing bar.

00:34:37 Hottie

It does not come back, or it's angled back quite as extreme as like a mustache bar does, like that Nitto.

00:34:45 Hottie

bar that the caller referred to.

00:34:47 Hottie

So it'll keep you in a little more natural style position when you're trying to ride that flat style of riding, yet you can still reach out and grab your levers if you needed to.

00:34:57 Hottie

So yep, they're going to be some, a lot of creativity moving forward, I think here, both allegedly and elsewhere.

00:35:04 Hottie

Love the XO1 too, great bike.

00:35:07 Hottie

Yep.

00:35:07 Hottie

Someone mentioned 32 inch wheels already, correct?

00:35:09 Hottie

I think that was you, Josh.

00:35:12 Hottie

Yeah, it is.

00:35:13 Hottie

I guess our listeners are deeply interested in your opinion on aesthetics.

00:35:18 Hottie

So we have another voicemail that came into the hotline.

00:35:22 Hottie

That hotline, by the way, is 317-343-4506.

00:35:26 Hottie

Here is Ryan from, but not in Indianapolis.

00:35:31 Speaker 5

Hi guys, Ryan calling the Indian native, calling from the now the windy state of Wyoming.

00:35:37 Speaker 5

I appreciate the

00:35:38 Speaker 5

the podcast, love Silca, appreciate Josh calling you to see out on the ******** keep it going.

00:35:44 Speaker 5

But just calling on regarding AJA 47, I'm gonna keep the 32 inch wheel conversation going a little bit.

00:35:52 Speaker 5

Can Josh at least extend an olive branch to us taller riders?

00:35:58 Speaker 5

I'm at six seven, I have a 64 CM specialized diverge with I think 200 and like 10

00:36:06 Speaker 5

millimeter head tube.

00:36:08 Speaker 5

So he talks of looks.

00:36:11 Speaker 5

Nothing looks goofier than that, especially with me riding it, but on 700cc wheels.

00:36:17 Speaker 5

So yeah, so for the looks, I would think that the proportional, as a 6-7 or tall rider, 32-inch wheels might actually look regular, which would be nice.

00:36:28 Hottie

All right, Josh, well, I'm 6 foot one and there are several pictures of me riding a 32-er.

00:36:34 Hottie

as we got to interview one of the builders.

00:36:36 Hottie

And I thought I looked okay.

00:36:38 Hottie

How about for a 6 foot three guy?

00:36:40 Hottie

He must, right?

00:36:41 Hottie

Proportion, right?

00:36:42 Hottie

We want to 6-7, man.

00:36:43 Hottie

6-7, very good.

00:36:44 Hottie

Yeah.

00:36:45 Josh

This is a great question because he is exactly like the proper use case for the 32 inch wheeler.

00:36:51 Josh

Or, you know, we've talked with Leonard Zinn on the show and he's a longtime friend of mine and you know, he's building bikes for 7 foot tall people with 36 inch wheels and like, yes, that's.

00:37:02 Josh

We need more of that.

00:37:05 Josh

It's like I'm still a big proponent of the 650C size for Rd.

00:37:09 Josh

because we have shorter people who, need that size of wheel.

00:37:16 Josh

Yeah, my frustration and challenge with 32 inch wheels is that they're coming like a freight train, down the tunnel straight at us.

00:37:30 Josh

by an industry that I think by and large is out of ideas and they need to sell you bikes and they're gonna obsolete, try to obsolete inventory that's still in the channel.

00:37:39 Josh

And there's just a bunch of nonsense.

00:37:42 Josh

And the industry story is gonna be, these are faster, they roll, but they do all this stuff, right?

00:37:49 Josh

And certainly some of that's possible, but you know, they're also heavier and they're hard to make as stiff.

00:37:56 Josh

And I think

00:37:58 Josh

There's just challenges there, right?

00:38:00 Josh

But the story that's gonna come with it, I think isn't gonna live up to the hype for a lot of people.

00:38:07 Josh

But when the industry's telling you this is the newest, bestest, fastest, smoother riding thing, and now all of a sudden you've got, you know, people riding a 51 centimeter, you know, frame and they're like, well, I want 32 inch wheels.

00:38:22 Josh

And now you're like, oh, and you've got, you know,

00:38:25 Josh

8 centimeters of toe overlap.

00:38:27 Josh

And right, like there's just all of these other things that kind of come with it.

00:38:33 Josh

When it's sold is like the next hot, better technology.

00:38:38 Josh

Yeah, if we could have this conversation as a, hey, if you're riding bikes between this size and that size, or you're between this tall and that tall, you need this wheel.

00:38:46 Josh

And between this tall and that tall, you need that wheel.

00:38:49 Josh

I would love to have that conversation because I think that's,

00:38:53 Josh

We do need to be designing and building bikes with better proportions to better fit people of all sizes.

00:39:03 Josh

My experience with 32-inch wheels and the first couple of bikes with them I ever rode was down at the Australia Handmade Show last year.

00:39:12 Josh

And Darren Baum, who's an amazing guy and kind of an amazing builder and just someone I love to hang out with and talk to and get feedback from.

00:39:23 Josh

And he talked, we talked a lot about, he built, I think, two or three 32-inch prototypes for that show.

00:39:31 Josh

And he said, gosh, I went through like 5 or 6 geometries before you could get it to feel even close to right, And because there's just all of these kind of new consequences of, do we curve the seat tube?

00:39:45 Josh

What's our front center?

00:39:47 Josh

Like, what's your toe overlap?

00:39:48 Josh

What's, you know, what's the wheel flop?

00:39:50 Josh

You know, kind of all these other elements.

00:39:52 Josh

And

00:39:52 Josh

And I would say even the, just riding around the parking lot on a couple of these bikes, I really noticed the like, wow, it feels a little understeery.

00:40:03 Josh

Like, and so I think we're also going to have to probably have a generation of bikes before we really get to what is the right geometry for this bike when it's being ridden by a,

00:40:19 Josh

a 5 foot 10 person or 5 foot 11 person and not a 6 foot 7 person, right?

00:40:22 Josh

I think when you're when you're 6, 7, you just scale the bike to match the wheels and I think it's going to work perfectly.

00:40:30 Hottie

So yeah, this seems like a good time to listen to these smaller builders who kind of at the forefront of this.

00:40:36 Hottie

I mean, I interviewed Daniel Yang.

00:40:37 Hottie

He's with Newhouse Metalworks up in Northern California.

00:40:40 Hottie

Our discussion

00:40:41 Hottie

I think we did a good job of kind of tempering all the hype about 32, and we talked about what it's for, who it's for.

00:40:48 Hottie

It's not for all people.

00:40:49 Hottie

What conditions is it for?

00:40:51 Hottie

It's not for all conditions.

00:40:52 Hottie

We both walked away saying that.

00:40:56 Hottie

Adam Sklar, also from Northern California, he's built a 32-er.

00:40:59 Hottie

He put it on trail.

00:41:01 Hottie

He's selling it.

00:41:02 Hottie

He says, not now.

00:41:03 Hottie

It doesn't make sense right now, right?

00:41:06 Hottie

So I think it's a good time to

00:41:09 Hottie

turn your attention to smaller builders.

00:41:11 Hottie

Bomb, the new houses of the world, these folks are more than likely.

00:41:16 Hottie

They're the people that are probably gonna give us the straight answer on these bikes, who they're for, who this wheel size is for, and who it's not for, before it gets into the hands of the larger people with larger inventories.

00:41:29 Josh

Yeah, I mean, it's a great point.

00:41:30 Josh

Like those small builders really become the R&D houses for the big brands.

00:41:36 Josh

when it comes to geometry.

00:41:38 Josh

and certainly, I mean, we saw that with gravel, right?

00:41:42 Josh

I mean, the first gravel bike I ever saw was a Kevin Harvey that actually Nick Legan from Shimano had commissioned.

00:41:49 Josh

And, you know, he took me over and showed me this thing and like talking about like, yeah, you know, it's more we'll call it like dirt Rd.

00:41:56 Josh

or gravel and like, what the hell is this thing?

00:41:59 Josh

You know, but you could really see it like, oh yeah, you know,

00:42:04 Josh

Trek can't go and figure this out because you had to build 30 frames to figure out the geometry to work with those wheel diameters and those tires and that this and that, all the other stuff.

00:42:15 Josh

And so, I think it's going to be a little bit of time.

00:42:18 Josh

And I just hope we can, I had a friend when I started writing, he was an attorney.

00:42:26 Josh

And he's a really interesting guy.

00:42:27 Josh

He's A Harvard educated attorney.

00:42:30 Josh

I think he was 6'11.

00:42:34 Josh

And he had a, Dave Moulton built Fuso.

00:42:38 Josh

And it was a 72 centimeter frame with 700C wheels.

00:42:44 Josh

You know, we called it the horse.

00:42:45 Josh

And it essentially looked like a Brompton, right?

00:42:49 Josh

And this was the 90s.

00:42:51 Josh

And so he said like, oh, you know, I want to do a triathlon.

00:42:55 Josh

And so he had a, it might've been a Tremble, or I'm trying to remember who he had built it.

00:43:00 Josh

But the triathlon of the 90s was still Dan Emfield's Quintana Roo led vision and that was 650 C is the fastest wheel and it's the ultimate for triathlon and you want, you know, an 85 or 90 degree seat post.

00:43:14 Josh

And so I would kill to own this bike, but he had somebody build him like a 85 degree seat post angle, 72 centimeter frame with 650 wheels.

00:43:25 Josh

I mean, it looked, it was like,

00:43:29 Josh

like something out of the circus, with a, I mean, his head tube was a seat, was like a normal seat tube.

00:43:37 Josh

And I just always think of that as like the ultimate insanity.

00:43:40 Josh

Like, yeah, but 650 wheels are faster.

00:43:43 Josh

Like, yeah, not when you're 11 feet tall, man.

00:43:47 Josh

Like, not when you have a, whatever, 55 centimeter head tube.

00:43:53 Josh

Like your head tube is the size of my seat tube.

00:43:56 Josh

Like that doesn't make sense.

00:43:59 Josh

So I think I would love to hear us have these more nuanced conversations about that.

00:44:05 Josh

And it's like, I think we've said it in the show a million times before, the bike industry is really good at answering the hell out of the question.

00:44:14 Josh

They're just really bad at asking the right question.

00:44:17 Josh

And so it's just going to be, you know, so you know it's coming though, right?

00:44:22 Josh

these small, size small cross-country frame with 32 inch wheels and a negative 60 degree stem.

00:44:30 Josh

And I know it's gonna happen.

00:44:34 Josh

I'm gonna see it.

00:44:35 Josh

It's gonna make me mad.

00:44:36 Josh

But it's where we are.

00:44:39 Fatty

So what is the right bike wheel size?

00:44:42 Fatty

Turns out?

00:44:43 Fatty

It depends.

00:44:44 Josh

How tall are you?

00:44:45 Fatty

Of course, of course it is.

00:44:49 Fatty

It's a really it's the answer for everything.

00:44:52 Fatty

One final question this episode, this one texted in from Dave in Massachusetts.

00:44:57 Fatty

He says, I should have asked this question before purchasing synergetic bearing lube, but here goes.

00:45:04 Fatty

Is there a rule of thumb to determine if you should repack bearings versus replacing them?

00:45:09 Josh

Oh, that's a good question.

00:45:12 Josh

It's really, are they still smooth?

00:45:16 Josh

And you'll know that when you get them

00:45:18 Josh

get them cleaned out.

00:45:19 Josh

there's this thing that happens in, well, there's a couple kinds of wear that can happen in bearings.

00:45:26 Josh

One of them is brinling or brinelling.

00:45:29 Josh

Like us old timers remember, like your headset bearings would brinle.

00:45:33 Josh

She's like, how the hell does this thing hardly turns, but you get these pits and it gets notchy.

00:45:38 Josh

You know, you can also get contamination in there that gets drug around

00:45:44 Josh

and will cut or score.

00:45:45 Josh

And so if you get it clean and you can see in there that the surfaces are shiny of the inner and outer races, and then you spin it clean and dry in your fingers and it feels smooth, then you are good to repack.

00:46:01 Josh

If it feels gritty or like lumpy or chunky,

00:46:06 Josh

then absolutely that one needs to be replaced.

00:46:09 Hottie

Hey, we want to hear all your questions and here's how to submit, text or call the marginal gains hotline, 317-343-4506.

00:46:17 Hottie

You've heard a few of our questions come in via that hotline for the show.

00:46:21 Hottie

You can also comment on this or any episode at marginalgainspodcast.cc.

00:46:25 Hottie

We accept rants as well too.

00:46:27 Hottie

So drop bars or, you know, looking at your head unit too much.

00:46:31 Hottie

We accept all that stuff here.

00:46:33 Hottie

Also, at that website, you'll find all the links to the platforms for listening to this show.

00:46:38 Hottie

So check it out.

00:46:39 Josh

And we'll be back soon with more questions, ranting, and aesthetic judgments here on Marginal Gains.