AJA #50 Inserts-Optimal gears-Narrow Bars

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Fatty (00:24)
It's the marginal gain show, little things, big deals, vice versa. I never knew what that catchphrase was supposed to mean. We're brought to you by SILCA. Makers of the world's finest pumps, tubes, tools, and lubes. That was not easy to say, but I am Fatty, and this is our 50th "Ask Josh Anything" episode. And I am fighting the urge to monopolize this show with my own questions.

Josh (00:31)
Yeah. I thought you were gonna say fighting back the tears. but okay, okay.

Fatty (00:52)
I saved that for the hundredth episode, Josh. A hundred episodes of Ask Josh Anything.

....I mean, 50 episodes about what? Seven, eight questions per. So this is 750 questions? Holy cow. That you've answered. How many times have you said "it depends" during all of that?

Josh (01:14)
sure there's some AI tool that can count it for us. ⁓

Hottie (01:15)
Hello, AI. Yeah, AI.

Fatty (01:18)
Okay, this time I actually don't have any questions of my own. I'm just going to jump right into listener questions. Brian in Sacramento asks, I'm hoping to do an hour record sometime later this summer on an outdoor track that has some bumps that could really fatigue someone with an arm impairment over an hour. I feel you. I posed the question to our group chat called the Oval of Trust.

Trademark, I love that. When considering an oversized tire to dampen the vibrations and bumps, but someone had the bright idea of just using thicker pads instead of larger and less aero tires. This got me thinking though, what material can I use to suspend my body without heavy hysteresis losses? Most of the materials I've seen feel like memory foam. And so how should I or would I adjust my tire pressure based on my selection?

Can you help me with some kind of thick Cuscino Aero bar pads?

Josh (02:22)
man, ⁓ this is a great question. The unfortunate reality, well, I guess to start with, let's do both. ⁓ The unfortunate reality of even these quote unquote very low hysteresis foams is that they still have much higher hysteresis than a pneumatic tire. The pneumatic tire is just so darn efficient.

If you have a good one, so like the P backs foam that Nike uses in their super fast shoes It's gonna have a history says or hysteretic loss somewhere between point one and point two. So ten to twenty percent loss ⁓ That's way better than an EVA foam that you know could be fifty or sixty and some of the you know sorbethane and some of those ⁓

damping foams can be in the 80, 90 range. So way more efficient compared to that, but still way less efficient than a tire. So I think the way I would attack this is you probably want to go for surface area first. And the good news there is that a lot of the modern kind of more aero fit arm rests or aero bars, they cover more of the forearm. And so you can spread the load out over, you know,

larger area. know, you could put in simplest form, you know, could buy a pair of ⁓ Nike, what are they, the invincible shoe and, know, cut, cut them away, cut them apart and make cool arm pads out of them. I don't know if you can buy bulk P backs or one of the I know Adidas has a new I mean, they're

Hottie (03:49)
.

Yeah.

Josh (04:03)
their new shoe just broke the two hour marathon in an actual marathon, an event for that's pretty amazing. And apparently that has ⁓ hysteresis somewhere slightly better than point point one, which is pretty amazing. But ⁓ yeah, I'm not sure where you get what you need there. But I think you know, maybe like a latex foam you might be able to find ⁓ that's going to be fairly efficient.

Fatty (04:07)
Mm-hmm.

Hottie (04:07)
Yeah.

Josh (04:30)
So starting from that, I think your real opportunity here is that you want to buy the most efficient 23, 25 millimeter tire you can get and then just run it a little under pressure for the track. It doesn't say what track it is, but I know like here in Indy, we've got the 1987 Pan Am Games track, the Major Taylor Velodrome. It's not super smooth, a little bumpy. It's got some seams. ⁓

And we've certainly found the ideal pressure for a 23 there is like 110 to 115 for most people. You could lower that to 100, you could lower that to 95. And the upside of the velodrome is even the rougher ones aren't rough enough that you're worrying about like pinch flatting or cracking a rim or something. There's...

Fatty (05:09)
Hmph.

Josh (05:24)
They're imperfect, but there's no potholes, ideally, right? I mean, maybe there are some of the really bad ones, but yeah, I would just get the most efficient tire that you can ⁓ and then just run it at a little bit lower pressure. And as we've talked about in our episodes on asymmetry and some of those things, better to be under than over and even a... ⁓

Fatty (05:26)
you

Josh (05:49)
a really fast higher, you know, 10, 15, even 20 PSI below its optimal is still going to be less hysteresis loss than almost any foam that you would put in the armpit. So, but I'd go for both because as we know at the hour, I think that the number one destroyer of our records is discomfort. And so I would say, you know, you're.

The things that blow them up where people end up not being able to finish are, you you go way too hard and you go, you know, lactic in the first 10 minutes, that always ends badly. And the other ones are either saddle or arm, shoulder, you know, neck type things where people just start to break down or cramp or get like, you know, cramping and seizing type situations that shut it down. So anyway. ⁓

Best of luck and the oval of trust. love it

Hottie (06:47)
Yeah. I think

Fatty (06:49)
Please let us know how that goes.

Hottie (06:49)
this the Brian, yeah, I think this Brian we know already, it might be Brian Larson, the Paralympian who came on the show just prior, or maybe it just after the Paris games. So I think that's who we're talking about here. So he knows what he's doing too, fast guy. Yeah. Good luck, Brian. Either way, good luck. Hey, Marginal Games also supported by Shimano. Part of the allure of Perry O'Bey is the very unique one-off bike setups.

Fatty (07:00)
Okay.

Hottie (07:14)
This year, there were a number of Shimano teams that went one by. Yes, one by Shimano during a road race. It's a thing. Does Shimano have a dedicated road by one by group? Boy, I'll try that again. Does Shimano have a dedicated road one by group now? No, but can you mix GRX or XTR derailleurs with a pair of derailleurs shifters? Sure you can. Some of the tech press made this out to be some kind of great revelation.

Fact is this kind of thing could be done way back in the early days of DI2. With wireless, it's just easier. And now it's something Shimano acknowledges as an option. Will it end the grumbling about Shimano's lack of a Dura-Ace One by groupset? I doubt it. But if you'd like to take a chance, put one on, go for it. And you can start by going to bike.shimano.com. All right, yeah, I'm Michael Hodin. Did you know? After all that, here I am.

Fatty (08:08)
you

Josh (08:09)
Ha

Hottie (08:13)
You call me hottie. Yeah, thank you.

Fatty (08:13)
Welcome, Hottie. It's good to have you here. Josh, CEO of Silco, welcome to the show.

⁓ 30 minutes in and we're introducing each other. I am a terrible host. I should have introduced both of you at the very beginning. ⁓

Josh (08:19)
You

Hottie (08:22)
That's fine, this is a listener-driven show, right? Not at all, not at all. This is about the listeners after all. And we've got a lot of great questions from them for this show. ⁓ Isaac from Newton Mass texted the Martin's Marginal Gains hotline at 317-343-4506 looking for some insert tech wisdom as he gets ready for this year's Unbound.

Isaac is no slouch either. He's aspiring for a top 100 finish in the amateur category. And with a little luck, he says he should get there. So he wants to know about tire inserts. He says, I love Josh's recent discussions on the Silky YouTube channel and podcast about Perry Rube and all things tire and insert tech. I'm heading back to Race Unbound 200 for the third time this year and want to ask about inserts. Josh mentioned that inserts can get under the bead and push it off the rim.

during sudden depressurization, in other words, getting a flat. And that inserts contacting the sidewalls add rolling resistance. Both of these points have me second guessing my setup. I'll be running tubeless with silica sealant again. It was flawless in 23 and 24. Self-sealing, a puncture with zero drama in 23. But this year I've upgraded the wider rims.

Fatty (09:37)
Nice.

Hottie (09:39)
32 mil internal up from 25 and I'm sure I'm unsure my old inserts still fit the application. Previously I ran an insert with a space capsule shaped cross section but on wider rims with 51 mil front 48 mil rear tires that in fact he measured those with calibers so that's the actual width. It may be too small to provide meaningful run flat or rim protection. The same manufacturer now offers a wide shaped cross section insert that looks like it would be better for protection. It also seems like the wide geometry would be less likely to get under the bead during a blowout. Is my intuition here correct? Josh Isaac has more here and it's good stuff, but let's start with that question in particular.

Josh (10:27)
I mean, you had me when you said Isaac from Newton. I just thought that was fantastic. I scrolled into the thing like, really? Isaac from, yeah, Isaac from Newton. That's awesome. Yeah, so probably, and I certainly could have said it wrong. ⁓ It's the inserts are not getting under the bead. ⁓ It's that they're pushing above the bead.

Hottie (10:30)
Yeah

Josh (10:50)
that can not really aid or assist in a blow off, but it's not helping prevent it as I think a lot of us early on assumed that would do. The thing that's getting up under the bead, like I think we said in our last one, specific really to hookless, is because the bead comes inward on a hookless, you can get sealant up under there, and then the sealant can act as a lubricant for the tire to come off.

I think the bigger one is just that the, yeah, most of the kind of round octagonal ⁓ space capsule shaped ⁓ inserts are, if they are putting load on the tire, it's typically kind of at the top of the...

area of the casing that's touching the bead and above that. So they're not helping hold it on the Y-shaped cross section. ⁓ That could work really well. And I have not used that specifically, but I think in one of the early Vittoria prototypes we were using back in the day with EF, ⁓ was sort of a light bulb shape with a square bottom. And we even had sort of just tall rectangular ones. And those actually do squish down in between the bead and help hold the bead out. ⁓ you know, like out against the rim. And those really do help the tire help prevent blowoffs. The downside of those in our experience was that they helped so well that you at the end of Rubé couldn't actually get the tires back off again. And we had to just break out the box cutters and the tin snips and cut the literally cut the tires off because the insert was doing such a good job of holding it on. And so

Fatty (12:24)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (12:37)
I would say my current view of inserts is kind of plus minus. I think they're very good if you want to run under pressure. They're very good at helping prevent ⁓ pinch flats and rim damage. ⁓ I would say, and I really hate to beat on hookless all the time, but I...

I think for a while people, myself included, thought they were helping hold tires onto hookless rims and they just aren't. But I can't say definitively that they're helping the tires come off of hookless rims either. I don't think that's the case. ⁓ They're just not helping prevent that. I would say run them, particularly if you're planning on running your pressure a little below maybe optimal.

for say added comfort or grip, they really can help you prevent that pinch flat or that cracked rim.

Hottie (13:41)
All right, more from Isaac from Newton. I also find inserts make field tube changes a real pain to the point where you almost have to rely on run flat and skip spare ⁓ tubes entirely. So I'm weighing three options, he says. The space capsule shaped inserts that may not fit my wider rims, Y-shaped inserts with potentially more rolling resistance from sidewall contact, or no insert at all.

Fatty (13:49)
Yeah.

Hottie (14:09)
and just packing a Silca TPU tube for backup. Josh, how would you set up tires and inserts to optimize performance at unbound?

Josh (14:19)
gosh. ⁓ I would say for our pro athletes at this point in time, we do not have anybody on inserts anymore. kind of for all of these same reasons, it seemed like they rarely did what we needed or wanted them to do when we needed them to do it. ⁓ And then if you did have a catastrophic... issue and I'm thinking of Keegan ran over that like I don't even know what that thing was it was like a six inch nail with like a I mean this thing yeah and it know and it went through the tire in like the tire and then the bead and then the sidewall of the rim and I mean it was like and of course at that point you know nothing is sealing that and then

Fatty (14:56)
A box cutter basically. ⁓

Josh (15:12)
basically you're stuck with like, now, and I can't get the tire off because I, side of the road with my tired shaky hands, I can't break the bead with this insert in there. So yeah, I would say for pure performance at the pro level, we're just recommending against inserts at this point in time. ⁓ you know, for, if your goal is to finish with a good time, ⁓ you know, I think something like the Y-shaped insert, ⁓ you know, might be helpful. It does provide some run flat performance. And, you know, if nothing else, it may get you to the next, you know, kind of aid area where maybe somebody could help you.

get the bead broken off. Or there are a couple of tools out there, I've not used them personally, but I've heard stories of people using, ⁓ and I honestly couldn't tell you a name brand or anything, but I know there are a couple companies that have tools that are like bead breaker type tools that I think even can help with install for...

use with inserts and the only kind of negative I've heard to that is that they can do like some sidewall scratching on your your rims. ⁓ But I think, you know, at that point in the game on the side of the road, if you're really screwed, do you care? Probably not. So, yeah, I would say I would go without TPU as a backup. But for some some instances, yeah, they they may. So am I saying it depends? I think I'm saying it depends.

Hottie (16:46)
Yeah, you are saying it depends. I the pros actually, if you're in the amateur field and you pick good lines and or you're not all packed up like the pros are where you're constantly drafting or behind somebody, should be able to, right? I realize Unbound is this wacky, crazy place with some nasty stones. ⁓ But Fannie, I remember originally talking to somebody about Unbound, a of yours, Don, who lives in Missouri, and he said he would go out there with super lightweight Renaeers tires and...

Fatty (16:46)
you

Josh (16:47)
Do

Hottie (17:16)
never got a flat and he said the key was just you got to be focused on the road in front of you and make sure you're picking your good line and in an amateur field if you're nice and spaced out it's probably less of an issue than it is with a pros.

Fatty (17:29)
Hmm. mean, having never done Unbound, I don't know for sure, but I know that there are thousands and thousands of racers out there, and sometimes your line choice doesn't have anything to do with what you want, but what's available. there's, I mean, there's that. I actually, I'm going to make this about myself for a second. So I have been trying out inserts for the first time ever as I train for the Leadville 100 this year. As you both know, I am hoping...

Hottie (17:39)
Right.

Josh (17:40)
Right, right.

Fatty (17:54)
to be the first 60 year old to ever finish under nine hours on a single speed this August. Is that possible? I hope so. I've been trying inserts and on the same bike, same tires, same everything, I am suddenly noticing that on hard climbs and on descents, my tires feel dead. This is, I mean, and that is the only thing that is new. Are you guys hearing that kind of feedback or is this strictly in my head?

Just a dead feeling. That is a loss of liveliness where I just don't feel like the bike responds the same way it used to. Could that be down to inserts or is it just, you know, hey Elden, you're getting old.

Josh (18:42)
So I'll say there's two things potentially in play and not knowing the inserts. There are inserts that do touch the sidewalls of the rim basically all the time. And essentially what they're doing is just giving you a cheaper feeling, higher hysteresis tire. ⁓ You know, it's the same thing when you...

Fatty (18:51)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (19:03)
like back in the day we'd buy the like you know $20 training tires you're like man these things just feel terrible right and it's because the hysteresis is so high and and one of the things that happens is because the tires not as responsive when it's recovering the impacts that happen during that recovery there's not as much flex

Hottie (19:08)
Yeah.

Fatty (19:08)
Yeah.

Josh (19:25)
left in the tie, you you're in a steeper part of the curve. ⁓ So they actually do behave as a stiffer tire, but it's the hysteresis that makes them feel dead.

Fatty (19:27)
Right.

Josh (19:34)
So some inserts do cause that as a problem. The other thing that happens is because the inserts are all closed cell foam, they shrink up, they kind of collapse down due to the air pressure in the tire. But now your tire system isn't just a simple air spring, it's multiple springs. And so you are actually, as you hit things and you get these little tire pressure variations,

Hottie (19:55)
Mm.

Josh (20:04)
you know, while you're writing, those are being also transferred into kind of collapsing and the histories of the the insert. So, you know, there is definitely a little bit of an efficiency penalty to that. ⁓ And I would say that that I can't say at least on the like the road where I probably have the most experience with inserts. ⁓ Rubé type situations where we use them for years. ⁓

Fatty (20:19)
Yeah.

Josh (20:33)
You know, nobody ever came back saying it feels dead. But I do know that the the like, what is it called? Huck Norris. It's like one of my favorite product names ever. You know, the Huck Norris is like a big rectangular insert that basically prevents rim breakage and pinch flats and downhill bikes. And you do hear that there. They're like, oh, wow, it really, really changes the feel, you know, of of the bike when you're just riding it around. But of course, when you're, you know,

Hottie (20:43)
Yeah.

Josh (21:02)
pro level downhilling, like, it doesn't matter.

Fatty (21:06)
I am

for sure not pro level nor downhilling. ⁓ I am, however, riding a hardtail, which means that I probably am feeling things that someone on a full suspension bike, which is what most of the field is on anymore. So I am perhaps having less information transmitted than I am used to on a hardtail, and it might have something to do with that.

Hottie (21:09)
Yeah.

Josh (21:12)
Mm.

Hottie (21:31)
You

know, ⁓ regarding unbound and flat protection, Josh, and a lot of folks will go into that race and they'll start adding sealant to their tires. And I've seen it said before that in order to increase your flat protection when running tubeless, just dump more sealant in your tires. But my question is, is there an optimal amount of sealant in a tire for flat protection, for sealing a puncture?

And is there a break point where you've just got too much and it's not going to be able to do its job?

Josh (22:03)
I mean, I would say from a practical standpoint, more is almost always better. And the limiting factor is generally people's willingness to put it in. ⁓ know, absolutely, there's I'm sure a level at which, you know, it's slowing you down and it's just sloshy in there. But yeah, I mean, we typically recommend I think if you think of your, you're looking at your tire from the side, the part that's like sitting on the ground.

You know, if you could have a puddle of sealant that's halfway up the tire sidewall in that condition, that's probably a pretty optimal amount. ⁓ You do get some very slight, I mean, like fractions of a watt rolling resistance or CRR increase with sealant. Because, yeah, there is some down, right, but.

Hottie (22:49)
I don't care about that. I don't care. just want, I want flat protection, Josh. That's all I'm

caring about here. Yeah.

Josh (22:54)
Yeah, yeah, but it's not as much as people. think people's mental model is generally that there's like a big puddle of sealant at the bottom and the tires just running through it. But what really happens is that, 90 % of the sealant gets kind of flung out and pinned against the sidewalls. Like, you know, was that old that the amusement park ride when we were kids, it's probably illegal now, but you know, it would spin and you'd get pinned against the wall. ⁓ That's your sealant in your tire. And so the puddle at the bottom at any given time is pretty small. ⁓

Hottie (23:14)
Roundabout.

Josh (23:23)
But the more you have in there, really the more it just becomes a numbers game. If it doesn't seal instantly, it's why when you stop, you wanna get the puncture to the bottom and the more sealant you have in there to kind of build on itself as it comes out, the better. But sadly, it's just always a numbers game. There's that railroad spike that Keegan ran over or that...

Hottie (23:28)
Okay.

Fatty (23:48)
you

Josh (23:49)
two

centimeter sidewall cut or whatever. And then it's like, yeah, you could have had the tire 100 % full of sealant and that not going to help you. But yeah, I generally, I would say, especially for an event like that and certainly the Bentonville events where...

Fatty (23:56)
You

Josh (24:09)
Like it just seems like there's just so many flats. And of course, a lot of those are sidewall slices, but you know, we always recommend like, you know, to our athletes, like take the handbook value and double it is like a minimum. You know, maybe triple it if you want. ⁓ Because it's, yeah, more won't hurt you.

Fatty (24:20)
Yeah.

The upper limit is the volume of your tire. There we go. All right, Peter. And Ossie in Austria. Yes, I double checked that. Texted this question into the marginal gains hotline, which is 317-343-4506. He says, let's take any top end brand new 28 millimeter tubeless road tire on an internal 21 millimeter rim.

Josh (24:30)
Right?

Fatty (24:54)
You pick the Brandon model. How, if at all, will the rolling resistance vary as the tire wears? As the central wear strip gradually widens, especially so on a rear tire, do we expect the wider contact patch to bring marginal gains in rolling resistance? If so, could we pre-wear race day tires? And would it make any sense to run the worn tires as a minor advantage if puncture resistance isn't a priority?

Josh (25:24)
Such a fun question. I actually just had an awesome hour long.

conversation with Paige Onwiler at the the wind tunnel on on this because she does tons of her own field testing and she's like kind of telling me or asking like like yeah I've seen that the rolling resistance improves it I won't give her number away but X number of hours and so like I pre where all my time you know like yeah that's 100 % true but the the reason is a little different from sort of the

mental model he's created here. think the model he's proposing is sort of a, as you start to flat spot the center of the tire, ⁓ it's presenting more surface area to the road with less casing deflection. The effect of that is incredibly subtle. ⁓

The real effect that's happening is that as the amount of material is wearing away, there's just less material to have the hysteresis losses. This is why tires that are thinner are pretty much always faster. And then you are also getting a little bit of a breakdown in the rubber itself.

Like one of the things that happens in the tire is you think of like the rubber polymers are these kind of like long cross-linked chains. And as you wear the tire and start to break it down, some of those chains begin to kind of break and get a little bit shorter. And that can actually...

help with this as well. I essentially they're becoming slightly less stiff and the hysteresis of the material itself is slightly decreasing ⁓ as those begin to kind of break down. I would say typically what we've seen is, you you want to have a tire that's maybe got four, five, six hours of use to kind of get it into that sweet spot. You know, we...

on our rolling resistance test machine. We always run the tires for a couple of hours, at least before we start to really test them. And it is different by different brands, of how, what you see in those first few hours. And I would say for the ones at the longer end, it's a six hour old tire, 10 hour old tire is gonna be faster than a new one.

The other thing he's not thinking here, but we've certainly seen it and tested it, as soon as the tire starts to flat spot visually, the aerodynamics just completely go to hell. Because you've now introduced basically corners that are not allowing the air to hold on to the leeward side of the tire in any sort of crosswind, while also just presenting a flatter... ⁓

you know less aerodynamic surface ⁓ in a straight headwind and so you know I would say any rolling advantage that you would get in a tire that's worn sufficiently to have a flat spot down the center you are more than giving that up ⁓ in aerodynamic losses so yeah you want tires that are new-ish but not new the other one to think of is the mold release and ⁓

You'll see a lot of the pro team mechanics do this with like a sandpaper or a Scotch-Brite ⁓ pad, but you don't want to go racing on brand new tires because the mold release can be quite slippery, especially in the wet. And so you always want to give a good, I don't know, 10, 20 kilometers of kind of gentle riding on a new tire to get that mold release broken down. ⁓

Fatty (28:59)
Hmph.

Hottie (29:10)
Yeah, I have a left collarbone

to prove that theory.

Josh (29:14)
Yeah, yeah. I I mean, one of the

Fatty (29:14)
Really?

Josh (29:17)
the stupidest crash, not one of the stupidest crash I've ever been in, actually quite comically was with Jason Fowler, who's the category manager of Zip now within SRAM. And we we had some new prototype wheels. We were all excited to go ride. And we headed out over lunch and literally were both on new wheels, new GP 5000s just chatting with each other as we roll out of the parking lot and in like slow motion.

he just both wheels slide out right under me and I just like boom like a sack of potatoes right on top of him and the poor guy I mean I think you know we're going like 10-12 miles an hour and he he looked like he'd crashed going 30 because it was him sliding plus all of my body weights on top of him and and I got up with like nothing I mean you know like like and and we both just looked at each other like did did you see that like that was the that was the dumbest thing ever.

Hottie (29:50)
⁓ man.

Josh (30:13)
And ⁓ yeah, so that's another just good reason to ⁓ put a little bit of use into tires before you go out and race on them.

Hottie (30:24)
Total side note here, fatty, but is there something wrong with me? I absolutely love the smell of brand new tires. Am I weird? Is that strange? I love, I mean, I walk into a bike shop, the first thing I smell is, just go, ⁓ there's new tires in here, new tire smell. Nothing wrong? Okay, good, just wanna check.

Josh (30:30)
No? Yeah.

Fatty (30:31)
Nothing at all wrong with you. It's like new car smell, man. I'm right with you.

Josh (30:37)
Yeah.

Fatty (30:38)
yeah. Nothing wrong with you, man. I would say that is the kind of ASMR we all can identify with.

Josh (30:42)
No.

Oh yeah,

yeah, 100%. Yeah, it's funny, I have so many of those. I actually walked into a machine shop the other day and was just like, oh god, machine shop. It's like the cutting fluids, like, oh, you know. Or I think we've mentioned on the show, but man, still, MEK, which I don't even think you're allowed, it's legal to buy that stuff anymore, but oh my god, the smell of that is so good. And that's...

Fatty (31:08)
We got to do a top 10 episode of favorite bike related smells at some point. I really do believe.

Josh (31:13)
I, another, another Zipp guy, Nick James, he's probably built 50, 60,000 wheels in his career. I mean, one of the best, the best wheel builders in the world. And that was, his was the Loctite. He's like, it's just like the Loctite, it's the smell of success. Like I've successfully finished another wheel, you know? I think of that every time I Loctite something, like the smell of success. Yeah, so good.

Fatty (31:38)
Threadlocker. There's nothing like it.

man. Okay. I love this. But I want to talk. Apparently when I said at the top of the show that we weren't going to talk about anything me related, absolutely bullshit. Sorry. Last Ask Josh Anything, we talked about my upcoming Eversting attempt, which I am still planning for this June 18th.

Hottie (31:55)
LIE!

Fatty (32:06)
So about a month from when this episode will be dropping. We have gotten a fair number of suggestions, all of them appreciated, lots of questions, lots of people who are saying, what are you thinking? But I got one particular longish text that sort of encapsulated what a lot of people were asking. This is from a fellow, Yutan, and ⁓ very representative. So guys, I want you to jump in with your thoughts on this writer's thoughts. He says,

Just got the discussion regarding Fatty's planned Everstein attempt. I have several comments, suggestions, and questions. He, meaning I, mentioned he usually climbs standing, but Josh recommends doing it seated. I think I would want different slash lower gearing than he is used to using. I suggest he focus on training for climbing seated at a higher cadence. I will note, I am working on this. At the same time, I am simultaneously working on this aforementioned

single speed effort, which is, you know, high gear, low cadence training. So I'm trying to do both, but when I am on my road bike, yeah, am intentionally riding in a lower gear than I ordinarily would. I am putting my butt on the saddle, which is something that I will otherwise, you know, if I don't think about it, I will go for an hour.

Josh (33:04)
Ha

Fatty (33:29)
without sitting down. I know that is weird, but it is something I can and am pretty good at doing. So that is something I'm working on. Thoughts from you guys? Or just continue on?

Josh (33:42)
Yeah, mean, will one continue on. But yeah, I I think you don't want to be climbing standing for a day for 20. yeah. Like.

Fatty (33:52)
for 20 hours. I know that I cannot do that.

Hottie (33:54)
Yeah.

Fatty (33:56)
Yeah, 20 hours is sort of my hoped for time, right? I start at five in the morning, hopefully finish one the next morning. That's kind of what I'm thinking I will do. Okay.

Hottie (34:08)
And

you know, I've interviewed people on cadence before Fatty and most of them will tell you cadence is, it's kind of a personal thing, right? Your cadence is representative of who you are, both fitness-wise and musculature-wise. I turned myself into a spinner, it took, cause I was more like you when I first started riding, I was more of a masher. I turned myself into a spinner, but it took a couple of years of that type of training to really be able to.

to ride at what I would say is like 90, 95 plus and for a sustained amount of time, just because it's just that you're taxing a different system. So I wouldn't go over, I mean, my two-cent coaching advice is I wouldn't go overboard with the high cadence. You are who you are and you don't need to stray, I think, drastically far from that and still have a successful Everesting day.

Fatty (35:01)
Yeah, I appreciate that and I agree. I'm not going to be able to completely revise how I pedal in, you know, while I am also doing something over the course of a couple of months. But I can try to get so that I have the high cadence, low effort ⁓ type of pedaling into my quiver, where it's at least something that I can rely on ⁓ when I, you know, when I've been

grinding in a standing position for long time. Okay, next part of this ⁓ the listener says, once he, meaning I, identifies what gears he needs, why not assemble a cassette that only has the relevant cogs aligned with the chainring using spacers in place of the deleted cogs and maybe ditch the superfluous chainring ⁓ and front derailleur.

⁓ assuming I don't want to spend the money for a one by chainring. I am going to say on that part, there at the turnaround, I am going to want the big ring for about a mile. I'm not going to stop pedaling and it is downhill. I am just keeping my legs in motion is one thing that I have noticed helps me keep from getting stiff when I eventually turn around and begin the uphill effort again.

Josh (36:06)
Hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Fatty (36:24)
That's a big reason why I am going to keep the 2x on my bike.

Josh (36:30)
Yeah, I agree completely. I think one of the things that we've certainly seen over the years that people underestimate the most or maybe get themselves in trouble with the most is the idea of like, you're gonna climb, climb, climb, climb, turn around and like tuck and drop. that works for the first.

three, four, five, six, 10, maybe, but then it pretty quickly leads to all sorts of weird cramping, neck problems, arm, right? You very quickly get yourself into some weird deficits in areas that were unexpected, and then once you're in the, you once you have a cramp issue with your neck, that's not going away. And so, and certainly the same thing with, from that level of effort to like,

Fatty (37:01)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Josh (37:22)
you a non-pedaling descent for a couple of minutes, you just lock up. And so, yeah, think the planning to pedal, you know, at least some, if not the majority of the downhill is smart. ⁓ You know, I do agree with, and again, I don't know the course yet, but we can certainly look at it. I think, I know we talked about with Ronan for one of his attempts, I think making like a four five speed...

Hottie (37:50)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (37:50)
cassette that was like just

what you needed, kind of right in the middle so you're not cross-chaining. ⁓ You know, think that's a solid suggestion. The challenge with the chainrings, or I guess talking about the one-by, and I mean we see this, it certainly was the guidance I gave to our teams with like the Roubaix setups, there's this seemingly like belief of like, but the one-by is more aero and it's lighter and I'll tell you, like you take a chainring off

Fatty (37:53)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (38:20)
and you look at the bike in the wind tunnel, it's almost nothing. You take the front derailleur off, it's almost nothing. Everybody who's running one by, certainly at that high level, they're then replacing the front derailleur with a chain watcher or chain guard of some sort anyway. ⁓ And so it's just interesting that I'm yet to do a wind tunnel study at the pro level.

where any of the kind of the quote unquote one by benefits are actually like materialized and real like but it's more arrow like yeah but it's not like yeah but it's lighter like yeah but is it really like you know I mean it like and certainly within a handful of grams here here or there but I you know I think because one of the other things we see with it is the one by setups that then just need much larger rear derailers with much longer cages and so

Fatty (38:57)
You

Josh (39:14)
in a number of ones I've seen, you go to a 1x, you add the chain catcher, you add the much larger oversized rear derailleur with the longer cage, and in lot of cases, like with the clutch, to help with keeping it from derailing, and you're actually less aero with that setup.

Hottie (39:30)
Mm-hmm.

Fatty (39:31)
Hmm.

Josh (39:34)
And so, yeah, just, I guess, just one to think of. And then the last thing I'll add there is that the one by specific narrow wide chainrings do tend to run slightly higher friction than a really good standard chainring. so, ⁓ you know, another one of those subtle trade-offs, but I think it does kind of break some of that conventional wisdom that we've let ourselves fall into. You know, we're kind of believing the marketing hype behind one by.

Hottie (39:45)
Yeah. Yes, they do.

Josh (40:04)
when I would say it rarely if ever materializes.

Fatty (40:10)
Yeah, and I will say I am I'm not going to be doing any kind of tuck or anything like that as I descend. What I do and what I have found is very efficient is when I'm going downhill, that's an opportunity for me to eat something that is not a gel. And that is really nice when you were going to be out there for, you know, my number that I'm giving myself is 20 hours. How do you know I am capable of eating as much of anything that I want forever?

Josh (40:23)
Yes, yes.

Fatty (40:40)
And you know, that's my specific superpower on the bike, ⁓ including gels. I mean, I've done nothing but gels for 10 hours before, but for 20 hours, ⁓ it is going to be really nice to eat something savory is how it comes down.

Josh (40:57)
You don't want to do a thousand grams of carbs per hour for 20 hours or whatever the new...

I think every time I read something it's like that number gets bigger. You're like, Jesus, like he's got a five pound bag of sugar and we're just pouring it down the throat. Like the carb numbers are crazy, but yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you.

Hottie (41:04)
All All in gels.

Fatty (41:07)
Uh-huh.

Absolutely. ⁓

So yeah, that's when I'm going to eat is my thinking. Okay, so another idea here. says, talking about ⁓ weight ideas, aero ideas, perhaps more extreme based on his description of the course, I'd be tempted to use only the front brake. I'm going to say hard pass on that. ⁓ Just, I don't know if anyone else here has ever had one of their brakes go out.

Hottie (41:22)
Yep.

Yeah.

Fatty (41:45)
I don't want to have my only break go out. Yeah. Just where, you know, a little air bubble in the, in the hose and suddenly, it's, you're really glad that you have a second break. Also, as the day goes on, I'm just going to, you know, I'm going to be tired. I'm going to be making worse and slower decisions. And then, ⁓ but however, he does say something that I've been thinking about that. He says, I'd also...

Hottie (41:48)
yeah, I've had that, yeah.

Josh (41:49)
Yeah, yeah.

Fatty (42:14)
use an old set of bars and cut the drops off. And I am giving that serious consideration because you know how often I use the drops when I am doing any meaningfully long ride? Seconds. Seconds out of 20 hours. I'm like, what are those doing there? Yeah, I don't know. But on the other hand, it's not like I, I'm not a sponsored writer. I don't have multiple sets of bars laying around. Once they're cut off, they're off forever.

Hottie (42:17)
Huh.

That's a Ronan trick. Ronan did that.

Josh (42:41)
I... Yeah,

I'd say on that one, yeah, I'm with you. mean, hard pass on. Like, for pure hill climb, single break, if you can pass the rules with it, awesome. Yeah, the thing with these sorts of attempts that, you know, it's certainly my thinking through life experiences, you know, changed as I've gotten older and helped people with more of these is...

Hottie (42:50)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (43:08)
Man, I mean, even if you're world-class, you're trying to beat Ronan's record or pro level, the level of mental fatigue and just physical hand, arm, wrist, finger fatigue towards the end of these things, whether you're trying to do it in nine hours or 20 becomes so extreme. And like you said, the decision-making ⁓ process really slows down.

And these are not closed courses free of cars or animals or things like that. And so the risk as the event goes on, it's almost like an exponential growth in risk, right? Because the same thing, know, a car is going to pass close, a fox will run across the road, you know. ⁓

Fatty (43:59)
Dear, around

Josh (44:00)
Adira, you

Fatty (44:00)
here. Yeah.

Josh (44:01)
know, all of that just gets compounded by your brain reacting slower and then your body being so fatigued that your body's ability to react to what your brain wants it to do is also slower. And then it also is unable to do it at the, maybe the force or the level at which it could have done it, you know, at the beginning of the event. And so... ⁓

Fatty (44:24)
or when I was 30 as opposed to 60, right? So, yeah.

Josh (44:26)
Yeah, for sure, for sure. But I

think too, know, the event like this, like you're pushing your body to the, whether you're 30 or 60, you're going to the ragged edge of the edge, right? And yeah, and everything just happens slower and worse as the event.

as the event goes on. I will add on the bars, keep your drops because you will want them at some point just for like ⁓ a wrist and shoulder something different position. ⁓ But funny story, the same wind tunnel test I was just at with Paige, Chase Work was there and he's been running with his drops cut off and he brought a new bar that he was really excited about.

Fatty (44:54)
something different. Yeah.

Hottie (44:55)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Josh (45:10)
And we tested it and then he had the guys at the tunnel go into their shop and cut the drops off to see how much better it was. And it was notably like five or six watts worse with the drops cut off. And I felt so bad because he the bars were not a sponsored product. he just poor Chase had like the saddest puppy dog eyes. And he just said, those were five hundred dollars. And I'm like, I'm so sorry, buddy.

Hottie (45:21)
⁓

Fatty (45:22)
Really?

Hottie (45:34)
⁓

Josh (45:37)
If we had known, we wouldn't have done it.

But ⁓ it was interesting that one of the theories, and we didn't have time to put ⁓ smoke or flow viz or anything on it, but the brake levers are so un-aerodynamically shaped, is that maybe the drops are actually serving to kind of clean up some of that dirty air off the brake lever. ⁓

Yeah, I mean it was just a surprisingly large number, it like five, six watts. So there you go. So you can keep the drops and tell yourself that the few grams you're saving are offset by the improved aerodynamics on the descent.

Hottie (46:07)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Fatty (46:18)
good, what a relief. What a

Hottie (46:18)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Fatty (46:19)
relief. Okay, and then one last question he has for Josh. He says, in this situation, would it be more advantageous to use the larger chainring with a correspondingly larger cassette or larger cassette cogs versus smaller trading efficiency for weight?

Josh (46:36)
To a point, absolutely. Yeah, to a point, absolutely. I think the harder one there is probably getting the chain line that you want. And especially since you're planning to pedal on the downhills and running the two by, I think you're gonna be in a a better spot. But yeah, mean, it probably would make sense to climb on like ⁓ a 42,

Fatty (46:47)
Yeah.

Josh (47:05)
your double be like a 42, 53, and then climb on, you know, one larger cog in the rear to offset the 42, because you are like from a 39 to a 42, you know, that's probably a lot of savings. And then from, you know, call it a 18 to a 20 or, know, whatever it's going to be in the rear, that's probably another half a watt or, you know, two thirds, three quarters of a watt.

And the weight at that point, I mean, you're talking a couple of grams. It's almost nothing.

Fatty (47:42)
I will be wearing my Aero socks. I will be, I want to be clear on that. Actually, I'm wearing them right now. You know how comfortable those things are? Honestly, I love your Aero socks, Josh. They're comfortable socks.

Hottie (47:44)
You should. Absolutely should.

Josh (47:46)
Good call, good call.

you

I, it's a beautiful, I gotta say that factory in Italy, I when I found those guys, I was just like, yeah, they make.

Fatty (48:01)
Yeah.

Hottie (48:04)
I wear them on the trainer and my FTP goes up right away, so I love them. That's all I know. This one might be semi-related here. Dave from Massachusetts hexed it into the hotline. I listened to the most recent AJA where I believe Josh said he doesn't use chamois cream. I would argue that besides lowering the risk of saddle sores, there's a very marginal, marginal gain to be had here, and that is by reducing friction between two moving surfaces. What do you think?

Josh (48:07)
Yeah. ⁓

Fatty (48:07)
Yeah

Absolutely.

Was that you Josh or was that me? I've done 24 hour races, no chamois cream, I never use it. I imagine I sweat everything often down into my Aero socks within the first hour of riding. I don't know, are there actual, is there a measurable possibly difference of riding with chamois cream? And if so, how do we measure that?

Josh (48:35)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, it's an interesting theory. think there may be a slight break in the model, mental model. ⁓ I think if your clothing really fits well, and this is important, but really well and tight, there should be very little movement between the clothing and the skin. Obviously it happens and that's how people get chafing. But I will say, I think if you're... clothing fit is really spot on. ⁓ You don't chafe. so yeah, that's it. Like if you are experiencing chafing, then you might be giving up some fractional watts to that chafing and some chamois cream probably helps. I, yeah, I can't remember. Did I tell, I know I just told this story to somebody the other day, but my personal chamois cream history, I've never used it.

Fatty (49:30)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (49:49)
And I blame it. It all goes back to when I was like 15 or 16. I went to the Olympic Training Center for the summer. And one of our coach coaches, ride leaders was a former pro, very famous guy, somebody, you know, I read about it in the magazines, right? It was a hero and and probably like the second or third day I was there, we were getting ready for a ride and one of the other juniors went to kind of like put some chamois cream and like stuff it down the front of his shorts and this guy, our hero who'd raced the Tour de France just looked at him in front of everybody and said, ⁓ do you have some sand in your vagina? And it was like, and the whole place just went like, ⁓ you know, like the record screech. And I would probably guarantee that there were like 20 people there that I would...

Fatty (50:30)
Ooh.

Hottie (50:31)
No.

Fatty (50:36)
you

Hottie (50:36)
Yeah.

Josh (50:41)
pretty much guaranteed probably none of us ever once touched the stuff after that. It was a horrifying moment. ⁓ And I think a look into, you know, we're our generation, right? We're the Gen X. We just like said terrible stuff like that to each other. ⁓ But yeah, so that I have often joked with, I've...

Fatty (50:57)
you

Josh (51:03)
bunch of the employees love Chamois Cream and get into these hilarious discussions about it. And I always said that my Chamois Cream was an empty jar that just says HTFU on it. ⁓ But no, as somebody who's also had a, when I broke my collarbone when I was racing in Europe and then of course was expected by the team to continue training on it and ended up with a... ⁓

Fatty (51:13)
Yeah.

Josh (51:29)
Saddle sore that was so bad it had to have some surgery on it. And ⁓ yes, the saddle sore reduction I think is a huge thing. I think, yeah, you got to take care of yourself down there. if you need it, you need it. ⁓ And certainly I ride so infrequently now that I think if I was going to ride for any period of time, I probably had to go out and buy myself some because I probably...

be absolutely shredded if I had to go for a three-hour bike ride with the amount of riding I've been doing the last two years.

Hottie (52:06)
Just do like Fatty and stand, just stand everywhere. Just stand and pedal, stand and pedal, you'll be great. In fact, just pull the saddle off and just stand the whole time. You'd be better off. All right, here's another follow-up question. This one coming from good friend of the show, Barry the Bike Fitter in Arizona.

Fatty (52:08)
Just na-yeah. Don't even need to shout me. What's the point?

Josh (52:08)
yeah, just stand the whole time. That's a good

Right. Just stay in the whole time.

Fatty (52:15)
Yeah, there's some way savings.

Hottie (54:18)
Yeah, and that's course gonna make the back wheel very light ⁓ and it can make the bike kind of understeer. So I guess what we're looking for here, Josh, first of all, why don't we just keep drop bars in the equation lifetime? That would be my answer. Second, is there a middle ground though, Josh, to, know, now that they are out of the picture to making steering and handling behave while also getting narrow and arrow.

Josh (54:47)
Yeah, it's definitely a hard one, and I'll add to this that I know this is currently a huge topic with this 32-inch wheel thing that looks like we're doing. ⁓ that those bikes handle all sorts of crazy. Right? And I've had a number of really fascinating discussions with builders around that of like, wow, like I do this, it understeers like crazy. I do this, it oversteers like crazy. Like what is happening? Yeah, I think part of it is I would love to see the bike designers think more about the biomechanics and the...

Yeah, the fit of the rider on these bikes. If for no other reason than I have to say, mean, certainly like the more extreme like Enduro and downhill bikes like this, you know, I just look at these things and go, my God, they're so ugly. It's got like a 45 degree, you know, not literally, but like 45 degree looking head tube and like a 90 degree seat tube. You're like, that just just doesn't please my eye. Like, how about we go parallel? And but as we've said before, I'm at this point in my

Hottie (55:53)
You

Josh (55:57)
for my own buying decisions, it's all about aesthetics and I don't really care about any of other stuff. ⁓ Yeah, you know, we've certainly seen with the Keegans and the Dillons and the athletes that we work with that ⁓ I would say the loop of bike fitting has become more complex that, you you get the rider on the bike.

They gotta figure out their position to make power. Then we take them, we put them in the wind tunnel. We try to find a position that is somewhat aero. Then they have to kind of see if they can still make power in that position. And then if they can, then they have to go ride it and see if it handles reasonably. And you're now taking kind of all of these trade-offs and trying to optimize a position around that. ⁓

That's quite challenging, right? mean, it's not like with the road bike, we never really have, and I would say even to some extent, like the gravel bike, the handling is always, you think about it, but I can't say I've ever.

done anything with an athlete where they go out and they come back and be like, wow, I can hardly ride the thing anymore. It handles terribly. And you do run into that ⁓ on these mountain bikes as we do these things and move folks around. yeah, I mean, I don't know what to say other than, yeah, it's probably, and certainly with Keegan and Dylan both pushing towards their aggressive drop bar and Leadville setups.

Hottie (57:07)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (57:29)
it was definitely a bit of an Icarus problem, right? You know, like how close to the sun can we fly? ⁓ You know, and yeah, like how far can we push it on all of these fronts and still have it work knowing that, you know, we're not far from a set up choice where it might be really bad.

Fatty (57:32)
Hmm.

Josh (57:52)
And you know, the good news of these pro level guys is, know, it's literally their job to go figure that stuff out. But I think it's certainly when you think of for like the rest of us or the age groupers, you know, it's why you can't necessarily just go do what you see the pros doing is that, you know, that, you know, you know, maybe maybe the biggest stem the manufacturer recommends is 90. And maybe we find that you can get away with 100, but maybe a 110 is a big problem.

And it takes time and effort and work to learn that. And it doesn't necessarily mean that you or I can copy that setup and go do the same thing and then ride it in the same way. Because maybe we, you know, I'd say the other one is, you you look at a lot of these mountain bikes as they've gotten the steeper seat tube angles and then we start looking at saddle setback becomes an issue and you start like, well, the

Manufacture also has a zero setback seat post, but that doesn't work anymore because we the rider needs to get flatter and so now we put them on a 25 millimeter offset and you've got the saddle all the way back on the rails and maybe that's the thing that allows for the the slightly longer stem It helps keep some of the the weight balance and then the reality is that the pro also has the flexibility to handle that amount of being stretched out Whereas you or I on that same bike?

not solving that piece of the equation and all of a sudden now we're in a spot where yeah we've got way too much front weight bias and the whole system rides terribly or quite frankly could ride dangerously. So yeah a lot of hard decisions and ⁓ as I said as we're starting to chip away at some of these 32 inch wheel things that it's going to make some of these decisions it's gonna make all of these decisions even harder quite frankly.

Hottie (59:30)
Yeah.

Fatty (59:49)
So one more voicemail sent in to the Marginal Gains hotline at 317-343-4506 and listener from Iowa for this one. And he's looking for some help on choosing the right set of wheels.

Josh (1:00:57)
⁓ No, essentially. The thing to, I guess, be wary of is that as your tire, and I hate to make this about hookless again, but as your tire ⁓ size relative to your inner bead width gets close, you can start to have problems. And so, you know, for hookless, think it's, what, a 32? You need a minimum of like a 25. ⁓

You know, my personal current favorite set of wheels is that we've talked about on here before the three T think it's the called like the 45 40 or the 40 45, but it's a 29 millimeter inner 40 millimeter wide outer 45 deep. And I run it with GP 5032 is that balloon out to 35. ⁓ And so we've actually had them in the wind tunnel. They test phenomenally. They ride beautifully. ⁓ They just look fast. ⁓ And yeah, essentially that's a gravel wheel that you're running with a road tire and it's only a three millimeter delta between the inner bead and the tire labeled outer width. But you can get away with it because it's hooked and the pressures are low. And so I think there's probably three or four silk employees that are now on that setup. I think

Hottie (1:02:08)
Mm-hmm.

Josh (1:02:14)
It's either light bicycle or nexty, know, to the Chinese manufacturers, they have an identical rim at a much more affordable cost that you could look at. I'm sure there's a ton of others out there. But yeah, I would say you can certainly get there with one of these setups, you know, you are experienced and certainly are testing the tire sidewall size versus the inner bead width. You need at least five, six millimeters if it's hookless and you can get away with three to four millimeters if it's hooked. And then you just have to be again careful with the pressures because technically you are violating the ETRTO tire fitment recommendations but as we've talked about here on the show before I think those are a bit rubbish anyway.

Hottie (1:03:06)
Hmm.

Josh (1:03:09)
But for legal reasons, to say, no, but user beware. ⁓ You are violating the rules. I'm not telling you to get yourself hurt, but. ⁓

Hottie (1:03:14)
Josh, ⁓ does your 3T setup fall within the rule of 105? Okay.

Josh (1:03:22)
Yeah, yeah, it's the tire balloons out to 35 and the rim is 40 right there. So it's I mean, it's it's beautiful.

Hottie (1:03:26)
Okay.

Josh (1:03:32)
Yeah, I every time I ride them somewhere, people see them, they're like, what is that? I mean, it just looks cool and fast. And yeah, and if you look at it head on, you can see the rim sticking out wider than the tire. And at that size and pressure, I I run them in the high 30 PSI range for the roads we have here in Indiana, and they just ride like a dream. Super comfy, but because the...

the beads are so wide, the tires, they corner like they have high pressure, but they ride over the potholes and the chip and seal like they're at the pressure they are. So.

Hottie (1:04:06)
Hmm. Okay, there's the short answer. Get with Josh House. That's the short answer though.

Josh (1:04:11)
Yeah, yeah, it's hard to go wrong.

Fatty (1:04:14)
that can go on the back of the It Depends t-shirt. Get what Josh got.

Hottie (1:04:17)
Alright.

Josh (1:04:17)
Yeah.

Fatty (1:04:23)
Alright guys, we've been recording for an hour and five minutes. Should we do one more question or should we go to the close? Okay. I'm going hold on to this one because I think it's a good question.

Hottie (1:04:29)
Let's call it. ⁓

Yeah.

Fatty (1:04:39)
But it's evergreen.

Do want to do it or shall I, Hottie? I mean, it has my name on it, but that's fine. Okay. Everyone, we want to hear all your questions in our next AJAA episode 51, our 51st AJAA episode. Here's how to submit. Text or call the Marginal Gains hotline 317-343-4506. You can also leave comments on this or any episode at MarginalGainsPodcast.cc, which is where you're going to find links to all the platforms for listening to this show.

Hottie (1:04:45)
has your name next to it, that's why, yeah. Yeah.

Josh (1:05:13)
Thanks for listening and we'll be back soon with more questions, answers, and occasional rants here at the Marginal Gains Podcast.