AJA #49: Helping Fatty Everest (A Marginal Gains Intervention)

Hottie

The Marginal Gains podcast is presented by Silca, makers of the finest pumps, waxing systems, and other lubes, cleaning systems, and tools. We are also supported by Shimano. More about both of those companies coming up shortly. This is an Ask Josh anything episode of the show. I'm Michael Hotten, AKA Hottie. And as I scan these questions here, I'm seeing something odd. Fatty, we're used to having you jump the line, but this time it looks like all of the questions are yours.

Fatty

I've been saving up. Yes, Hottie, I've got a big goal this year. I need all the help I can get. Josh, Josh Portner, Honcho in Chief at Silca. Is that your actual title? I'm just going to make up a new title for you every episode. Welcome to the show.

Josh

I'll take anything. I'll take janitor.

Fatty

Janitor in chief.

Josh

I somehow seem to be the guy who always is like, that toilet's broken. And like, okay. Small business, right? It's how it works. But yep. Hey guys. So I looked at this script this morning and it appears to me to be the marginal gains equivalent of the Captain Crunch box of like, oops, all the berries or Or the Lucky Charms, all the marshmallows, is that kind of what I'm seeing? Only marshmallows today.

Fatty

Sorry, man. That's it exactly. It is the oops, all fatty episode of AJA.

Josh

All right.

Fatty

Guys, a long time ago, like more than 130 episodes of this show ago, COVID was raging, racing, disappeared, and Everesting, riding up and down one slope until you have climbed 29,029 feet became a thing. We had an Everesting champ, the then unknown, Ronan McLaughlin on the show talking about how he used marginal gain techniques for his achievement. And we continued talking about Everesting a number of times on the show. And I have to admit, that planted a seed and it has taken root. I have been obsessed for a while, I will say quietly obsessed until this moment, but this June I turned 60 and it seems like a good time. for me to give Everestine a try of my own. So my situation and my objective are a lot different than Ronin's. Honestly, probably a lot closer to our listeners. So here is the marginal gains challenge I have for both of you. Help me. A card-carrying member of AARP with the nickname Fatty, successfully get through my late midlife crisis. Help me marginal gain my way up to 29,000 feet.

Josh

Wow. Okay. This is a big one. This is a, this is a big one. We should go out and get that Ozempic sponsorship. And that could be a good starting point for all. I could stand to lose about 15 pounds too. I mean, maybe, or maybe we just could get like a group buy.

Fatty

For starters. I am all in. The Marginal Gains Podcast brought to you by WeGovy. So if only, man. So here is what I am in fact working with. Not a lot of sponsorship here. I have a 2015 Felt road bike, which I upgraded last year with a new then, now new-ish, Shimano Wireless DI2 Ultegra. I love it. I will say it took my 10-year-old frame and makes it ride like a brand new bike. Shifting is just remarkable. Yeah. And I know, I think I'm the only one Josh, but I love synchro shift. I do all of my shifting for both derailers just with my right shifter. It is, it is fun. So thanks to Shimano for sponsoring this show. Although I bought my drivetrain retail. My wheels are also a decade old. They are zip 404s. I have a 5034 crank set. 28 millimeter tires are as wide as I can go on this frame. So I am working with, you know, an oldish bike. I don't, I don't and haven't spent a ton of money on keeping this thing upgraded. So starting with this, what can I do to make this better? I'm willing to spend some money. I don't think that I'm necessarily willing to buy buy an entire new bike for this one ride.

Hottie

Well, I think you're setting yourself up for it. depends, right? Aren't you putting the horse before the course? I mean, literally speaking, should we know what the course is, Josh, before we start making equipment recommendations? Like you want to kind of fit cassette things and weight things all dependent on what his slope and so forth are going to be. Is that not the way we should be first analyzing this?

Josh

Yeah, I mean, I think you did. Well, I guess for starters, do you have a course?

Fatty

I do, in fact, have a course picked out and I can go ahead and describe that for you. And then yeah, let's do let's do course and then and then horse. I think you make your great point, Hottie. So the course that I will be using is a section on a very popular Rd. climb that I have ridden many, many times. It has the good fortune of having been repaved within the last couple of of years. So it has really nice, smooth tarmac. It is in a beautiful, seldom driven area. It is 2 1/2 miles, a 7.1 on average grade. It has one nice little feature where the bottom of this section has a nice little uphill turnaround. So I don't have to brake when I get to the bottom. I will just let it coast, turn around, and then resume, resume my next lap. 945 feet of climbing per ascent. So there's just a couple of, you know, moments of drop and then a little bit of climbing. 938 feet elevation difference. which means essentially around 31 laps to get to an Everestine completion. I might do, I sometimes think I should probably do 32 just because, you never know if the Garmin might underreport or something like that. And I would hate to, wind up with, 28,900 feet of climbing when it uploads to my Strava. Or do you think that's not something I should worry about?

Josh

Well, no, but you said uphill, or no, that's uphill turnaround at the bottom. So are you turning around at the crest of the hill at the top?

Fatty

Yes. Just a little bit about this. At the summit is an actual stop sign. So I will turn around there and come back down. And then at the bottom of the descent, it turns sharply uphill right at that moment, right at the gate. Take the brakes off the bike.

Hottie

All right, no brakes, no brakes.

Fatty

Just let it roll. Yep.

Josh

Let it rip.

Fatty

So yeah, it is a really nice course, very steep, in my opinion. This 7.1% is a little bit, I would say, deceiving because there are parts of it that are 12 and even 13%. And then toward the final half mile, it drops to about 3%, gets a little bit easier. And so it averages out to that 7%. But there's some, there's some true steepness in there. I've ridden this because it is part of my, you know, my home turf riding area. I think my Strava says I've ridden it 60 times. And this is a very familiar ride for me. And it's hard. The fastest I have ever done it is about 16 minutes. I don't know, by the time I've done it 30 times, will it take me a full hour? I don't know. Anyway, so there's a little bit more about the course. Does that help, Hottie?

Josh

Yeah, I love the sound of this thing. So we, I can't remember, it was either Ronan's second attempt or when we were working with Phil Guyman, we found a course that had a, an uphill turnaround. And we thought, can we count that elevation too? And I think when we asked them officially, they said no.

Fatty

I'm pretty sure that is the case.

Josh

Against the rules. But I do love the use of momentum, right? And quite frankly, the reduction in the need to try to maximize your braking zone. Because one of the tricks we've used with a lot of the athletes is, you know, really plan Like when you plan your course, you really want to take some spray paint out there and like mark like where you start your turnaround at the top, right? So you, because towards the end, when you're really just shelled and wrecked and your brain isn't functioning, like you need a couple of, you know, bright yellow neon strip painted on the ground of like, oh, I need to turn around now. But then also to mark your braking zone, because especially if you're running rim brakes, the risk of, overheating or, at the bottom or when you're really smashed, just running through it because you break too late, and now you've got to miss the turnaround and you're just costing yourself all this time and frustration. But having a little kick up, like a little ski jump at the end, will really help with that and take a ton of the breaking load out. And honestly, as well as some of the stress of like hitting that breaking point. Because all this stuff is easy the first time and maybe the second time, but for the 31st time, you're just not functioning at a high level anymore.

Fatty

And that is something that I did bring into the decision to use this particular course. I am turning 60, as I think I've mentioned three times here. I have been riding my bike for 35 years or so. My wrists are terrible at this point. They hurt. Anytime I ride for more than an hour, hour and a half, my wrists are killing me. So I know that they are going to hurt. I know from long rides that I've done recently that just hard breaking efforts when I've been on the road for six hours starts hurting. It has been a long time since I have ridden 20 hours. I have done it before. I've done solo 24 hour events before, but it's been a while and I'm older. I got to think about how do I make this comfort is, I think, going to be the critical path to me finishing?

Josh

Yeah. No, I agree completely. I mean, I think when you really think about the 15 plus hours. I don't know if you have an idea, but I know a lot of attempts kind of end up in that range. We're running it just under 7. It's a very different, there's very different concerns. So yeah, as I think through, and especially some of the feedback we got over the years from the athletes who had finished theirs, I think with the time that you're talking here, I think the start time and the planned finish time are a pretty big deal. I think you're going to end up riding in the dark somewhere, right? If you say it's 15 hours and could be 16, 17 hours, you're going to be in the dark somewhere. And so, I think most people, and I think certainly from a safety perspective, we want to think it is definitely better off to be in the dark when you're fresh. than to be doing this in the dark when you're smashed. And so, I would be thinking about, how early in the morning do you want to get this thing started with, maybe kind of plan it out that, hey, I want to be finishing a little before dusk. and so you kind of back into that and, is it, are you starting at midnight? I don't know, but I think we, that would be one I would really, really want to think through because I, I think, again, your mental acuity, it starts declining, actually relatively quickly and certainly past the halfway point. You just aren't, you just aren't capable of processing at the speed or with the full situational awareness, you know, that I think you want, especially when you're riding in the dark on a road that, you know, like you said, it's not heavily trafficked, but it's also not completely closed off. for the purpose of this thing.

Fatty

Yeah, it's not heavily trafficked by cars, but I mean, I got to watch for deer, to be honest. I don't know if either of you have ever T-boned or seen someone T-bone a deer. They stop you cold. I will say that. Potty, and you probably more than anyone else know what happens to my brain once I get into long ride mode. I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed.

Hottie

Are you going for time or just to finish?

Fatty

Just for a finish. I have no illusions of setting a, you know, an age group course record or anything like that. I want to prove to myself that I can do an Everesteem challenge. So here's what I'm thinking before we started this conversation. I'm very fortunate in this respect in that my birthday is almost on summer solstice, right? June 18th is really close to June 21st. I'm gonna get as much light as you possibly can get, right? It's going to be light from basically 5.30 in the morning till around 9 at night that time of year. That is terrific. I was thinking that I would wake up early and start my ride in the daylight just so that I start the ride having had a good night's sleep. The reason I was thinking of doing it that way and doing the nighttime riding at the end of my event is because I have an expectation that this is likely going to take me 20 to 22 hours of writing. I am going to spend some time in the dark. So if I start at 5 in the morning and it's 20, or right when it turns light, That means I finish in 20 hours at 3 in the morning. It will have been dark for about 5 hours. I don't think that there is any way I'm going to get away from hour after hour of writing in the dark. Just because I don't think I'm going to be that fast. It's hard for me to say. It's been a long time since I've done this kind of thing. Is there, and maybe that is one of the next questions is how can I estimate how long this thing might actually take me? Is there a Chung method for hyper endurance climbing efforts?

Hottie

Does Best Bike Split do anything like that maybe?

Josh

Yeah, we could. We could top in and tease it out on there. Yeah, I've got some spreadsheets we could work through as well to kind of, kind of give an idea. I mean, I would say too, I think, going out and doing a couple of like reconnaissance climbs, right, to really get it. Because, one of the things, with these is like you really want to, you need, it's like an hour record, right? You need to stay below that lactate threshold because, if you go past it early, you can never quite get out of that deficit, right? I mean, and so the consequences of pushing a little too hard too soon, can be high. And so you're going to want to find, whatever your number is and go, I would say this is, to me, probably more of an event for your situation that you want to ride on heart rate more so than power. Because it's really about what's happening in your body, right? More so than the power. So, I think, look at a, I would go do a recon of, what's my threshold? Go, pick a number 10 beats below it. what's 20 beats below it feel like? What's 10 below it feel like? And then, really try to limit yourself in that range while you're doing the event. And then there are some calculations out there for, you know, how, you're going to go, the same heart rate is going to create less power as you fatigue. And so we can kind of, put some numbers around what that looks like. And then the other thing that I think about is, your climb, would you say it's 2 1/2 miles? And so I think the other thing we need to really be on top of is, it's so tempting to like, You're shredded, you turn around at the top and you coast to the bottom, but that's your coasting time is going to be potentially long enough that you start to risk some kind of, you know, locking up, cramping, stiffness. Cool down, stiffen up. Yeah, you know, like those things really start. And so, you know, there's going to be some element of, you know, kind of forcing yourself to, you know, even if it's just soft pedaling, but like be pedaling, right? Like you need to stay moving and, you know, because certainly I've seen, even with some really pretty top level athletes, like, the first couple of these, they tend to, you're like, Chris Frooming some wild tuck or whatever. And then, you do that twice for 5 minutes and then realize like, oh, geez, like my lower back is fried. My hip feels, like my neck did something to my neck from trying to see the road. And, but it's tempting, right? Especially when you're early in the event of like, oh, I'll just put myself in a little tuck so I can get down faster. But you can really pay big prices for some of those things later on.

Fatty

And I'm definitely looking to avoid paying that kind of price. I've actually entertained the idea of putting on a stem that brings my handlebar up a little bit, just so that I am sitting a little more upright, because I don't care what my descent times are. car. What I want to do, and once again, my wrists, I want to put as little weight as possible on them since I'm going to be doing this for, 15 to 20 to 22 hours.

Josh

Yeah, And I think the thing to just be aware of there is, you'll really want to train that position, because especially if you're doing this much climbing, you're already going to have weight shift into your crotch, more so than your hands. And so if you raise your stem and bars, that's even more weight shifted into your crotch, and now you're risking issues around that. You know, which does bring me to, I think at least half of the athletes we've done this with have come out of their experience going, Shammy cream. Shammy cream. So like I personally have never been a shammy cream user, but I think if ever there were an event where it's like, that could be a game changer, it's this one. And you know, maybe it is too like, you know, like re, you know, re-lubing yourself a couple times during the event or whatever. Because, you just need to take care of your bits, right? I mean, some chafing or, some sort of skin injury early in this thing, holy smokes, it can get bad, throughout that. So, I think that another thing, yes, any tweaks and changes you make, you're really going to want to, I mean, I'd say give yourself six weeks to like train on that and train on that situationally. if you raise your bar and stem, I'd do it six weeks before and I would go, I would go climb on that position a lot as part in your training here to, just get your body ready for that. Cause yeah, these, things are extreme, right? And, it's the repetitive motion and the way the timing works out that, it's like, it's the same distance up and the same distance back. But then when you, look at the math, it's like, well, 90% of the time is just doing the climbing. And, it's the actual time spent in the descending is much lower because you're going, so much faster.

Fatty

I think you've just sold me on not doing on not doing the different stem. I've ridden with this fit for about a decade and I'm very comfortable on it. And can ride, I know, I've ridden 10 hours on it numerous times. I've never ridden 20 hours on it, but it probably, this may not be the moment for me to try a, radically different bike fit, right?

Hottie

Back to the bike, Fatty, it's rim brake, correct?

Fatty

No, it is. It does have disc brake.

Hottie

Yeah, it is. Oh, okay. Oh, and 2015 disc brake bike. Okay, awesome. Well, that'll take Some of the fatigue then, I don't like the weight. Obviously, you're going to be carrying on hydraulic fluid and calipers and so forth, but it'll take some of the stress off your hands then. I mean, how much braking? Will the course require? Can you free wheel the whole thing or probably not? You'd probably be going 80 miles an hour at the bottom.

Fatty

It is, it gets going pretty fast and there are a couple of bends where it is sharp enough. It is not just a straight shot down like Ronin's. That was sort of like a magical course where it was just, you know, a straight line up, straight line down. Mine definitely has some curves and bends and I need to be I need to be at a controlled speed because once again, there's wildlife where I live. I don't want to hit a raccoon or a deer on a fast descent, much less a car.

Josh

Yeah. And what about, let's talk support. staff? Are you planning to bring somebody with you or doing pure solo?

Fatty

I expect to not count on anyone being there. The hammer, my wife Lisa, is likely to come and ride a big chunk of it with me. But she has a day job and will probably leave. And I mean, this is not her insanity. This is mine. So I expect to put my truck and ice chest and anything I need, either at the top or at the bottom of the hill, there happens to be a turnout or a parking lot at either end that I can use and more or less plan on taking care of myself. If I mean, would you advise strongly against that? Or is that just like, so it's going to take a little bit more time?

Josh

No, I mean, it's obviously it's always good to have somebody there, right? Just in case. I mean, stuff happens. You know, I think my ideal scenario would be like you park at the bottom and then you have your helper, spotter, you know, crew, whatever, at the top. Because from a hydration nutrition perspective, you don't want to be carrying that stuff with you the whole time if possible. And so, and then the best time to eat and drink is on the descent, right? Because it's, it may slow you down fractionally, but not nothing compared to when you're climbing. And so yeah, having, having a person at the top to give you a hand up can save just a ton of time. And certainly, again, as your mental acuity goes downhill towards the end, having somebody thinking through those things of, like, here's your bottle of whatever, and then on the next one, here's your water, and then here's your gel packet, or here's your, you know, I would say one of the things that you hear from writers who've done this, you know, not the Ronins of the world doing it in seven hours, but the people in the 15 to 20 hour range that I know who've done this, all say the same thing of like, God, at the end, you just like, I just want a burrito. I just, like, I just want some sort of real food, and. Yeah, real food. Who was it talking about? I had this conversation somewhat recently about the gum. Like, oh God, I would have killed for a piece of gum to just get the, the sugar from the gels off my teeth, and I think like, that's, I wouldn't have thought of that, but 5 hours of fuzzy goo teeth, it's just distracting, right? But, maybe that's something that, you have a helper a bit here or a bit there or when possible and, anything's better than nothing. But I think by and large, it's, I would say, car at the bottom. And maybe it's like a little card table or something at the top that you set out some nutrition on, and you pick it up at the top and you drink it on the way down and discard the bottle at the bottom and Go back at it again.

Fatty

Yep. I actually love that idea. My idea was similar that I would put an ice chest at the top, put my truck in the bottom, and yeah, and just essentially use my truck bed as a trash receptacle during this thing. You know, I'm just tossing empty, empty gel wrappers, used bottles, pizza crusts into the truck bed. I'll clean that up afterward. But essentially just kind of have something set up at the top, something at the bottom, hope that no one ransacks or steals the stuff that is at the top and unsecured. And I was thinking, I mean, with this only being a two and a half mile stretch of Rd. of actually like dropping off tubes and mini pumps, or whatever, stuff to repair a tire at various points along the way. I mean, it is not that long of a thing. I don't need to carry, tire repair stuff if I know that I am never more than an eighth of a mile away from it, right?

Josh

Yeah, no, I think there's a lot of sense in that and it's significantly better than trying to carry carry into that stuff with you, right? Because I mean, the weight really, it just makes up, it affects you on time, it affects you on your energy. I mean, it's like the, as I always say, I'm not a physiologist, but having had those conversations, there is this like spiral that happens. Like every, every pound that you're carrying up or, every whatever, 500 grams you're carrying up are costing you additional calories burned. which then need to be refueled, right? And so it's like, you're increasing your, demand to, refill those calories. And like, there's just all this other stuff that happens with it. So yeah, if you, the more you can pair back, the better. And yeah, an eighth of a mile between flat repair stations probably also just gives you a lot of mental comfort. Yeah, right. Which is huge. I mean, that's, having, I think having that knowledge that you're prepared allows you to expend that mental energy elsewhere.

Fatty

So let's talk a little bit about that weight that I am going to be carrying up this mountain 31 to 32 times. Obviously, I had a blog called Fat Cyclist. I am a guy who works a day job sitting at a desk. I think, I mean, Hottie, you'll agree, I have a minor gift for climbing, but I also carry a paunch. What would it mean to be 5 pounds lighter versus 10 pounds lighter? How much does it actually matter in this, you know, essentially climbing 29,000 feet?

Josh

For this particular thing, you know, I generally am a big like weight, isn't everything or doesn't matter all that much. But for this particular activity, it's huge. And I would have to pull my spreadsheets and do the math on it. But again, I mean, there's a simple energy calculation of, you know, say it's 5 pounds, you're to, you know, it's potential energy into kinetic energy. You've taken 5 pounds and you're essentially needing to raise it 29,000 feet. You know, just from a pure, caloric perspective, you could calculate that and then there's a math of, how efficient's the human body. Well, it's actually sadly not. not all that efficient. And so you could pretty quickly back into like, how many additional calories do you have to eat to carry that 5 pounds? And then there's the, you're going to be going slightly slower. So how much time are you adding with that 5 pounds? And I can't do that in my head, but yeah, we could certainly calculate for that. And you'll find that, you know, when the sole goal here is the climbing, the effects of weight are sadly, pretty big and pretty real. And that's where, like, when you look at the setups that, we've come up with for kind of all these record attempts, you try to do arrow things where they are free, but everything else is about mass. and you look at some of the, you cut the drops off the handlebars and you go with, do you go with the shallow wheels or the slightly deeper wheels? Like, you really, you go with the shallow wheels, you go like, do you go with the, wider tire or the lighter tire? If it rolls similarly, you go with the lighter tire. You know, the, like there's every step of the way, you know, you really do probably want to bias for weight. And I would say in your, situation is a little bit different. in that, there are certain things that I would call non-negotiables, like, if you had 100 gram lighter saddle, I'd be like, don't do it, man. Right. because like.

Fatty

Because comfort overrules everything.

Josh

Yeah, because that, when, again, if you're going for the, if you're trying to beat Ronin's 640 and go 630, it's like, well, I would start training on that lighter saddle now. But in this instance, it's like, okay, like that's a non-negotiable. the clothing one is a bit of a tough one. I would say, you definitely want to wear your best, most comfortable pair of shorts and then probably your best fitting, least wrinkled jersey, right? So like you want to maximize the arrow where possible, but at the same time, it's, you know, for an attempt like this, I wouldn't say skin suit, because you're going to regret it, right? I mean, especially if you're not doing all your riding in that skin suit, or maybe it's got a slightly different shammy than what you've been training in primarily or things like that. And then I would say also a little bit similar on the tire pressure, you know, you probably want to be safe and run, you know, let's calculate out the optimal and, you know, do we go 5, 7 PSI? below that, and maybe that's worth, a lot, but at the same time, it's probably going to be worth a lot for your wrists, right? And your crotch and things like that. And so, I think it is that fine balance of, if we can take weight out with no risk to the physiology and the body, we should do it and then we should really try to not do it where it's affecting you personally. So, a much, much lighter helmet if you had just to pick something like, that's not going to cost you. There's no risk to that, And actually there's an upside to that in that, you're, that's just less energy in your head and neck and all those things. And, you probably want to pick a helmet that's well ventilated and going to keep you cool because we're doing this in June where it's probably going to be warmer to hotter. let's really think through some of those things.

Hottie

The Zip 404s, I love that wheel set, Fatty. Is that, though, the only wheel set you have available?

Fatty

It is. It's my only wheel set.

Hottie

It's your only wheel set, okay?

Fatty

So yeah, I mean, it is what I'm using. I, you know, who knows? I could, of course, buy a new wheel set if I thought, well, this is something I'm going to use a lot, but I'm not a pro racer. No one sponsors me. I'm not going to go spend $2,000 on a wheel set unless it's going to be a wheel set that I use.

Hottie

Your daughter's a pro racer. Why don't you go begging from her? Although you probably have quick release, that 2015 is probably a quick release.

Fatty

It is not. No.

Hottie

It's not. Yeah. Hello, Melissa. Can we borrow a set of wheels? She must have a nice set of lights.

Fatty

She, actually, I took her to the airport today and was telling her for the first time, this is, this podcast is the first time I'm telling the, well, the world about it. And she was like, oh yeah, I have some wheels that you could borrow and keep as a, you know, as a spare set of wheels. So that could, that could do it. That maybe those should be my primary wheels.

Hottie

I also want to ask about gearing here.

Fatty

Yes.

Hottie

So you've done this climb before, Fatty. Do you have a general idea of what The gears you use most when you go up this climb.

Fatty

I am in, I am in my granny, of course, you know, front derailleur. I am definitely in the 34, okay, yeah. And I am in my third, second, and lowest gear is where I spend all of my time.

Hottie

It'd be nice to find a way to get that chain more towards the middle of the cassette when you're climbing and stay out of that lowest gear, right, Josh, if you want to try and optimize for a straight chain line as we can. That would probably mean either a different cassette and or a different crank set. Now 50-34 for Rd. purposes is, you know, that's about as low as you can get. There are other crank sets. Shimano makes a GRX crank set that will get you down to 48-31, which might help out a little bit.

Josh

What's the cassette? on that look like? Is it a multi, is it like groups of three and four cogs riveted together or is it a one piece?

Fatty

I don't know offhand. It's standard Ultegra.

Hottie

Oh, it's Ultegra. Okay.

Fatty

Yeah.

Josh

Okay. Because one of the things that you can do, and we've actually done this before, is, you know, I know at least with like the Dura-Ace one where I think it's like your top three are riveted together and then you've got the next couple. is that you can actually get another group of those and put it on the inside, on the spoke side, to shift everything over by like 3, and that way you're just not cross-chaining as bad. And so that cross-chaining up there, it's those top three, I mean, each one over is close to, well, close to almost a watt per shift as the chain goes lateral. But then also your lubricants, don't do as well with prolonged cross-chaining because every time those links kind of articulate laterally to go from the angled chain line onto the cog, the roller, the little bushings in the chain, they twist a little bit on the pin and they go from running on their bushing surface to running on their edge. And so it's just for a split second, but it basically, it just kind of digs away at at the lubricant that's in there. So yeah, if we could straighten that out, that'll, and then with, I actually think with the Shimano app, you can then just block out those top cogs so that they're, you know, like they're not usable. Say no, I'm only running here.

Fatty

You mentioned basically measuring my effort by heart rate, which is how I would be doing it anyway. This bike does not have a power meter. Good.

Hottie

Let's wait. Yep, it's fine.

Fatty

Yeah.

Hottie

You're going to wax your chain, right?

Fatty

That is my next question. What? Yes, I will definitely be waxing my chain. Knowing, I mean, so I'm going to be putting, let's say, let's be optimistic that this is going to take me 20 hours. What is a 20 hour application that you would recommend, Josh? Something that is going to do me for the day.

Hottie

Well, first of all, what are the conditions? We got to get through the it depends here. So I'm going to try to clear those out of the way so Josh can answer the question. Is it dirty, dusty? What are the conditions like?

Fatty

In where I will be riding, it will be clean. It'll, yeah, I'm not, there will be, I'll be on good tarmac all the time. The, it, the only place that would be different is when I go into a pull, into the pull out where the truck or the picnic cable is set up. And likely I would just not, I'm not, I'm not going to roll up on the dirt for that anyway. I'm just trying to be safe for the tires.

Josh

Yeah, I mean, standard wax chain will handle that no problem. Yeah, no problem. Cause it's, you know, you're not doing.

Fatty

I'm not going to be doing it a lot.

Josh

Yeah, you're not doing tons of shifting. And quite frankly, half the distance you're riding is downhill. So yeah, no, standard wax chain, I think is perfect for what you've got here. And then?

Hottie

Speed ship. Could he, could he try a speed ship maybe?

Josh

That one gets a little tougher. I don't know if I would speed shift on this or not, because that does start to cost you. I think I would probably go for safety, go standard wax chain, and then maybe a bottle of like synergetic up at the top, that if in those last couple of climbs, like if you feel like you're hearing the drivetrain or you're getting any noise out of it, anything like that, you could just pick it up and on the descent, just, you stick it down there and just blast away, right, to get it back up to speed. But yeah, you're, probably talking an extra watt to two watts of efficiency through the bulk of the race on the pure wax chain. And then, again, the performance of wax falls off much slower than the sound comes up. But it also, it never really hurts to add the synergetic at the end if you feel like you really need it. I mean, especially where it's relatively clean. You know, you don't have to worry about picking up a lot of dust and things like that. And I mean, too, the ultimate distance that you're riding here, just the distance isn't that great. So you're probably fine with the standard wax, but.

Fatty

Right, just 150 miles, right? I mean, it's not that huge of a distance. It's the up, and you know, the chain doesn't notice that. How about bar tape? My wrists, I've brought up again and again. What can I do to make this as comfortable as cushy and experience as I can.

Josh

I mean, I might consider double tape. I think depending on how well you tolerate that, I know some writers just don't like that.

Fatty

I think, because of the thickness, because the bar suddenly feels soft or wide.

Josh

Yeah, I think because it feels different. And I think too, it can be hard, especially if you use like our casino 375, it's a thicker tape. You've got the cushion of a 5 millimeter in 375, but two wraps of that is 7. And it can be tricky to get the transition from like the hoods to the bar tape, kind of what you're used to. And so I would say, some riders just don't like it, certainly riders with smaller hands, I think, don't like when it just feels too big.

Fatty

It feels bulky.

Josh

Yeah, and it's different, right? And it, and it does slightly change your, it's only, it's not quite 4 millimeters, but I mean, it is like raising your bars 4 millimeters, right? You know, like it goes, you know, that bar position that you're touching, your contact point goes both up and back towards the rider. So it does, tweak the position a little bit. And so, I would say like my experience with double bar tape for like Roubaix is that you've got people who are like 100% all in on it and people who are like, I did that last year and I hated it. So that's certainly one that I, you know, again, I would dry run that 6, 8 weeks out. Like, do I like this or not? And, you know, I, my guess would be that you're probably going to be fine with it and like it. And, you're, I think you have the advantage certainly relative to like a lot of the pros that we work with where, they're doing 5, 6, 7 hours a day every day on the same bike. Right. And some of those, and some of those guys are like, aren't position sensitive at all, but some of them are like millimeter sensitive. You know, I think you ride a bunch of different bikes, right? I mean, I, you know, I think you're, pretty adaptable because you're, you might be riding two, three different bikes in the course of a week, right? And that just isn't the case with a lot of the pro athletes that we work with. So, my guess would be that you would adapt to that in 20 minutes and be fine with it. And then, yes, certainly towards the end of 20 hours of having your hands, I think, you know, you're both adding cushioning, but you're also increasing the surface area. over which to spread that cushioning, both of which are totally going to work in your favor.

Fatty

Now, Hadi, you have seen this many times before. Josh, you probably have not seen how I ride. I am a terrible masher. I am a standing climber. I mean, I stand all day. I can stand and climb for miles. I don't, expect that is the smart way to do a ride like this? Or does it matter? I guess it is maybe is maybe the question is obviously in the wind tunnel. I'm sure you've that it shows that is, you know, a terrible way to expose all, you know, all of your possible self to the wind. But is I I'm I don't know is do Do I need to spend time, I guess, developing a different riding style so that I don't burn a lot of unneeded effort through my technique of being a standing climber?

Josh

Yeah, I mean, I think from the macro picture, it's back to our calories in, calories out part of the equation of you're just burning a lot more calories and you're just working so much more of your body climbing out of the saddle. And so I think that's the risk there is, again, for any one or two times up this climb, does it matter? No. By the 30th time, you have to pay a price for that somewhere. And you then also have to fuel to offset it. And so I think, certainly all of the, and again, putting on my Next to my It Depends hat, I have my not a physiologist hat. But I think everything we've done and everybody that we've worked with previously here, you pull out Alan Limb or these guys into these things and they are all about higher cadence spinning, as well as this like, don't go past your threshold, right? Don't get into that lactate thing. And then also kind of really coming at it from a more macro, like we got to be replacing the calories that we're burning. And, that one's fascinating for me. I mean, we all am not, yet 60, but we grew up in an era where like, you're going to do a century without water and teach our body how to, how to work when it's dehydrated. And, or we're going to do a century without eating. And, I think all this, stupid **** that we used to do that, and we just know so much, so much better now and different. But, there are calculators out there for these things. And certainly, with the athletes that I've worked with and, when physiologists like Alan are involved and having that knowledge in the group, it's like, oh, wow, we really can delay the onset of a lot of this like fatigue. We can keep you, your power output per heart rate stays higher for longer. all of these things really compound to make huge differences in those later hours, right? And I think it's, the stuff that back in our day, you're like, I felt great for, my three hour race or four hour race, whatever it was. But you, can train your body to fake it for a couple of hours, but not for 20.

Fatty

Yeah. Okay, little bit of a lightning round here. Obviously, I'll have a GPS. What fields would you show on that GPS?

Josh

Oh, heart rate.

Hottie

Even though people hate it, I don't know why there's been this thing about heart rate these days, probably because the power meter has become so prolific, but I'd still, heart rate, I want to know when right? I think you do too, when things are going, starting to go a little S, right? Heart rate can tell you, you're low on hydration, you're going too hard. Like it can tell you a lot of things, right? And so that's why I still kind of like it. And so I'd have heart rate. And it just depends, yeah, and it just depends too how, like some people like looking at speed and total ascent and it's entertainment to a certain extent. Like, yeah, I just got to climb. If I climb another 500 feet, I'm going to reach, 15,000, right? You kind of set yourself little intermediate, short goals.

Fatty

I like the math games. I do a lot of math games.

Hottie

So right, if you like that stuff, if you like to kind of just check in on what's going on, statistically speaking, and you know that's you, I would say do all of that, right? So Especially around the climbs, like any little distraction you can have on the climb, as long as it doesn't disrupt your pacing, terrific. I mean, great. Play a little mind games with yourself.

Josh

Yeah, I'd say that's one. If you know you can use it to your benefit, go with it. But be careful, because when it starts to go against you, know, again, it's that mental fatigue thing, right? And we see this with these ultra endurance, like it can also be the thing that like unravels you. And so I think, that's, for me, I'm always really cautious with, how much we call it the date attainment. how much date attainment do you really want to see? Because, certainly it can be the like, oh, well, I know I really need to focus on my heart rate so I don't, exceed my lactate threshold or whatever, but I'm not going as fast as I should be for this heart rate. And now what's wrong with me? Right? So, you know, and the mental game starts to kind of unravel your mindset a little bit where, it might just be, hey, I just need to get to the top, drink something, take a couple of deep breaths on the descent and go at it again. So, but I would definitely say if, yeah, if you don't have pit crew, something for the laps, because it is always shocking to me and I'm like the worst one of it where you can be on lap 4 and I'm like, Like it's like at the track, like 4 laps in. I'm like, what the hell lap am I on?

Fatty

Was that three or seven? I don't know.

Josh

Exactly.

Fatty

Yeah. That is the Garmin does have a lap button, which is definitely something I plan to use. But I guarantee you that at some point I will ask myself, did I remember to press the lap button? So I think I can do auto lap. Brakes. I thought we were talking about breaks.

Josh

I'm like, well, we know you got discs. No, I am definitely in the always keep moving camp.

Fatty

Yeah, that's where I am. I mean, from my experience at Leadville, nothing hurts your average, like 0 mph.

Josh

Yeah. Well, and it just does weird **** to your body, right? I mean, it's kind of like the, you know, the super tucking on the downhills, like I mean, we've all been there. Like you're feeling not bad, but ready to take a break. And then you take a break. And as soon, I mean, it could be one minute. And as soon as you get back on, you're like, Jesus, this is terrible, right? And now you're an hour to get back to your baseline of one minute prior. So yeah, always, always keep moving would be, is my camp.

Fatty

Tubes and tires.

Hottie

Yes, you definitely need them.

Josh

Yes, they help.

Fatty

These old 404s do not do tube loss at all.

Hottie

It's okay.

Fatty

No. So what's your, I mean, in the old days, you were a big fan of the latex tubes, Josh. They have good compliance, hysteresis, et cetera. Now, of course, you've got your own tubes that are the, you know, the TPU tubes. Should I use those or should it in? what tire, do you have a tire that you are a real fan of and would recommend for something like this where it is, obviously safe on the downhill and light on the uphill? What is both?

Josh

Yeah, so this is 1, and I'll actually start this with, because it's a controlled course of a fixed length, there is sort of a cheat code that's not cheating at all. that I highly recommend, and that is the leaf blower. And this is super helpful if you've got a companion. But if you can drive the course with somebody hanging out the window with a leaf blower, like to knock all the **** out of where you're going to be riding, both, you know, it's five total miles, right? Two up, two back. Clear yourself a lane. I mean, it de-risks a lot of things. It also gives you some peace of mind, especially, you said it is twisty and you will be breaking on the downhill. And so, that always gives me peace of mind too, that again, as your mental acuity declines, you know, when you're only half as aware as you were when you started, you're at least on the best possible Rd. surface.

Fatty

I hadn't thought of that, but that is actually brilliant. No, I'm on an actual mountain and scree falls down, rolls down all the time. Just, you know, little gravel things, you know, just a little bit of barely visible gravel. And you can, you know, you can slide out hitting that. So yeah, clearing the road the day before, that's a great idea.

Josh

Yeah, so, and literally you can, I mean, we've done it. Somebody driving, someone hanging out the car window. I mean, it's silly, but it really works. And so I would do that. And then once that's done, and you said the pavement is otherwise pretty new.

Fatty

It's really good.

Josh

You want the lowest CRR tire you can get, right? And I think we've talked about here before how like, you know, CRR is actually more equivalent to slope. Right. I think we've talked about that mathematically. It's quite a cool thing. But Vittoria has a tire, the Corsa Pro Speed TLR.

Hottie

Yep, that's the one.

Josh

I think there is a, there's one that's like a WR for world record and one that's not, but I think they test about the same. 28 millimeter, which will fit your bike. It's only 250 grams, so it's quite light for a 28 millimeter tire, but the rolling resistance is phenomenal. So that's the tire that you're going to want. Because, again, and you can look at bicycle rolling resistance data, but you think of the CRR is equivalent to slope. And so, every, 0.001 of CRR is equivalent to riding a 0.1% additional slope. And so, effectively, lower CRR tires are making the slope of the road less steep, or the equivalent of making it less steep. So.

Hottie

At what speed is that though? What speed does that calculation work?

Josh

It works at all speeds. Yeah, that's what's so cool about the math on it that, yeah, you could actually say, I'm climbing this section of Rd. at this steepness. And you can say, oh, on this tire, that's the equivalent of this. And on that tire, it's the equivalent of, you know, something else. And it gets pretty significant quickly, right? And it also gets in your head where you're like, oh, on that tire, I'm going to climb the equivalent of 32,000 feet. Like, you know, nobody wants that. But these tires, they're super supple. They're really comfortable. they're not, because they're so efficient, they are not as sensitive to tire pressure as some of the higher hysteresis tires. So, you know, there's less penalty for running them a little below, like if you want to prioritize comfort. And then I would run them, you know, the math on latex versus TPU, like our TPU tubes are within about a 10th. of a watt give or take to a latex tubes or to a latex tube, but then they weigh less than half. And so there's sort of that trade-off there of like, it's slightly more hysteresis, but half the weight. I would call it a wash. I would say my big difference there would be if you were If these were rim brakes, I would run TPU for sure because they're a little more, they're able to handle a little bit higher temperatures compared to latex. But being disc brake, you know, it's probably a wash, like a little CRR traded off for weight.

Fatty

Just from a comfort perspective, that was my inclination that I'd be able to run it at a slightly lower pressure. It would feel, you know, I'd feel a little bit less Rd. chatter. That is my inclination. I have, And in terms of weight loss and so forth, man, I got 10 pounds I can lose before I start worrying about grams on my tires, I'm afraid. So, I mean, everything counts, right? I know that, but I got stuff that I can take care of right here at home, so to speak. Guys, final question. Are you gonna come ride this with me or crew for me?

Josh

Man, it's June. I have to look at my calendar.

Fatty

Yeah, maybe I could come be your crew.

Josh

I, this sounds great to me on an e-bike.

Fatty

There you go.

Josh

Like, is there an e-bike ever, Stinger? You know, I probably would get my *** kicked at that one as well, but yeah, that would.

Fatty

I love that. You're officially invited. Yes, come Moto pace me.

Josh

That would be Moto pace you.

Fatty

I love it.

Josh

Super fun, super fun. Well, I am excited to see, you'll have to give us all the details of where you land with all your equipment, and then yeah, let's...

Fatty

We will do a follow-up episode, perhaps half an episode right before I do this, and half an episode... Not right after. I expected straight to bed right after, but sometime shortly after. So yeah, more to come in June.

Hottie

Hey, if you've got advice for Fatty on this ride or have a more conventional question, we want to hear that. Text or call the Margarine's hotline, 317-343-4506. You can also comment on this or any episode at marginalgainspodcast.cc, which is where you'll see the links to all the platforms for listening to the show.

Josh

And we'll be back soon with more questions, answers, and advice for those of you with late midlife crises, like Fatty. Call in and tell us, what is your late midlife crisis? Give our number a call and maybe we can help, or in this case, maybe not help you with that. Thanks again, everybody, for listening to Marginal Gains.