Inflatable Inserts & Radial Tires

SHOW TRANSCRIPT:

Hottie (00:33)
I think a lot of people probably got their first exposure to this. ⁓ was that last weekend as we speak here at Sea Otter at Perry Rebay as we saw the Lidl Trek team using these. ⁓ give me a kind of a brief description of what this thing is that w some people are putting in their tires now.

Jacob Hinton (00:53)
So what we've got is as the acronym would suggest a pneumatic tubeless insert. ⁓ it is full TPU construction and it's it's built in a way there's a lot of confusion around it where people think, well, this is a tube inside of tubeless, which cancels one or the other out. ⁓ This product's actually designed in a way that it's when inflated, it tightens against the rim instead of expanding out into the tire volume.

And so it's really multi-purpose. ⁓ it's at the end of the day, a tubeless tire insert. ⁓ it also acts as a beadlock. It offers some run flap protection. It's tunable between your main tire volume and the OPTIS insert itself, so you can adjust your air pressure back and forth between the two as long as your main tire pressure is.

lower than the pressure inside of the ⁓ insert, but you can essentially tune your compression curve for your tires. Similar to how you would tune your suspension with volume spacers, you can tune your tire with ⁓ with the OPTIS, which is arguably one of the most important parts of suspension, even on full rigid bikes.

Hottie (02:13)
Is it it's fair to call this then a an inflatable insert? Would that be accurate?

Jacob Hinton (02:17)
Yeah, that's pretty well exactly accurate, sure.

Hottie (02:20)
Now it's got two valves on it. one ⁓ delivers air to the insert, one to your tire, correct? ⁓ tell me about the how it works and any limitations it might have.

Jacob Hinton (02:31)
So limitations mostly are gonna be rim depth. ⁓ so the valve has a set depth. the the gold valve is our inner valve, and that's what actually goes to the insert to inflate the insert. It's gonna have a hole in it that the black outer valve wraps around, and that hole needs to land between the back black valve.

so that you can get air into the main volume of your tire. So that's that's gonna be your main limitation is you just are gonna have to match valve length to the rim that you're riding. We've got at this point two different valve lengths over the next ⁓ little bit of time we will be releasing multiple valve lengths especially once we go to market with our road and gravel version of the insert because of course there's widely varying rim depths especially in the road gravel world.

Hottie (03:31)
Yeah. So what's the deepest wheel you can accommodate right now?

Jacob Hinton (03:34)
Right now, this one works up to about a 50-55. So ultimately it's it's hard to land exactly on a rim depth because it more so has to do with the very base of the channel inside of the rim to where the presta nut goes. ⁓ on the mountain valve, which is our only valve that's currently available, we have an 18 millimeter depth between the bed to the presta valve.

Hottie (04:04)
It's deep enough or long enough that a pro tour team was found ⁓ found them good enough to p to put in their bikes, right? Yeah. ⁓ well why don't we talk about Ruby real quick? What did you were there any quick learnings from that fast and furious event?

Jacob Hinton (04:17)
There were, yeah. ⁓ so you know, we had one scenario that will likely never ever ever happen again where someone actually managed to puncture puncture both the tire and the insert. And when the debris in the tire came out, their sealant sealed their tire up. The insert then deflated inside of the tire, refilled the tire, and they were able to keep riding. Beyond that, you know, I think we learned a lot about perceived knowledge of ⁓ of things, you know, there was a handful of, you know, well this is supposed to prevent flats, which of course nothing can do. ⁓ but but yeah no we ⁓ we had one rider actually get a flat during the race ⁓ and he was able to maintain speed, continue pedaling, stay in the pack, alert his follow car that he had a flat and needed a replacement bike, and safely stop. you saw a lot of other riders during that race carrying their bike with their tire wrapped around their rear triangle, rims breaking, all kinds of wild stuff. Those cobbles are super, super gnarly. ⁓ and so it was we considered it a monumental win that the one flat that we saw was able to come to a controlled stop, get a fresh bike, get moving without any headache.

Hottie (05:41)
Now for the writer who's already using inserts, why should they shift this way?

Jacob Hinton (05:47)
So the tune-ability is a a huge, huge thing in my opinion. ⁓ I think that, you know, being able to control the way that your tire reacts to the terrain is invaluable. ⁓ another big benefit of this over some other options is the beadlock capability. So when you inflate that insert, you know, it grips against the rim and where it grips is of course at the base of the rim and the bead of the tire, and so it pushes the bead of the tire.

out to really lock it to the rim. ⁓ that also makes initial setup a lot easier. ⁓ you can use that and in most cases you can use a standard floor pump to set your tubeless setup up. You're not having to run to the compressor, you're not having to pull valve cores out, any of that stuff. You just inflate the optus, it'll hold your tire in place, fire some air into that tire and before you know it you get that terrifying pop of the bead seating.

Hottie (06:43)
It's terrifying. It's it's reassuring for most of us who run tubeless. That's a good one. Is it it's I the system must be lighter, I'm guessing.

Jacob Hinton (06:51)
It is. It's significantly lighter. ⁓ we don't like to really throw numbers out specifically on that because of course with each manufacturing run there can be slight variance and when you're talking in terms of grams, slight variance starts to look a lot like a lie if you're off. but yes, it is significantly lighter than ⁓ the majority of foam inserts on the market. Okay.

Hottie (07:12)
How about s use of sealant? ⁓ first of all, can I get sealant through that valve, that right angled valve, and how does it interact with the inflatable insert with the OPTIS?

Jacob Hinton (07:23)
So you're gonna use sealant just like you would in any tubeless setup. your tire is still your tire. The OPTIS sits completely away from the contact patch of the tire, so ⁓ still use your sealant. I do find that the non puncture related loss of sealant is less with OPTIS because you don't lose as much with the sealant sealing up that whole bead gap. ⁓ with the beadlock capability it kinda helps push it and you're not

Getting a lot of that sealant glue around ⁓ the bead. You can push sealant through the black portion of the valve and then, of course, through the gold portion and into your main tire volume. We don't recommend it. There's a lot of bends there, and there's just a lot of chances to clog the valve and accidentally be stuck with an inflated tire or the opposite. ⁓ But it will work. If you do do that, I would always recommend, you know, either.

Letting some air back out of the tire after it seats so it'll push some sealant out or just hitting it with the compressor to push the rest of that sealant through. ⁓ but yeah, mostly we recommend putting it in when you're about three-quarters of the way with the bead over the rim on the second side of the tire, pour it in just like you would. Same amount that you would normally use. Just dump it in there, finish popping it on, and go about your day.

Hottie (08:43)
Talk to me a little more about the tire pressure optimization. Like h how do you know it it seems like you would put, if you're running, say, no inserts and you went to this system and you're a roadie and you'd been running 75 psi just to pull a number out. It seems like with the optus in there I'd want to lower my tire pressure because it's taking up more space. Is that what you have found?

Jacob Hinton (09:08)
That is accurate, yeah. So ⁓ we for the mountain insert when we released it, ⁓ it's got a chart in the FAQs on our website. When the road gravel insert comes out, the same will happen. And what our chart essentially is is not a hard and fast, you have to run this pressure. It's a comparison chart for if you run this pressure, this is likely the setup of insert to main volume pressure that you're going to like that's gonna be most similar.

To what you ride. ⁓ ultimately rider experience is gonna dictate what you want to run in both chambers. ⁓ I find that I like to ride a little more pressure in my optus and a little less pressure in my main volume, and that you know, still gives me a little bit of rigidity as I get into big hit compression ⁓ type spots, but then still lets me be super grippy, super nimble and soggy for lack of better phrasing.

When I'm not having impacts. ⁓ so go ahead.

Hottie (10:10)
If my main tire gets a flat and I'm now riding on the OPTIS, how long do I have? Like how long can I keep going on that thing?

Jacob Hinton (10:18)
That's all gonna be relative, but we more so say long enough to safely find a stop. So, you know, you're not gonna ride out of the trails. ⁓ if you do, great. We're not gonna say it's definitely gonna do that for you. ⁓ but instead of having this, I just burped or I just slipped my tire and now all of a sudden my shoulder's digging into the ground, you're gonna get

The deflation, you're gonna still have something to ride, not damage your rim, and you're gonna be able to safely stop and dismount your bike.

Hottie (10:51)
How about sidewall cuts, you know, with tubes and sidewall cuts, we end up like booting and doing weird things. Does it survive a sidewall cut?

Jacob Hinton (11:01)
The sidewall cut itself it should. ⁓ now if whatever cut that sidewall went through the sidewall, mostly just ultimately it's right there and you know it is going to be able to be cut. ⁓ it's very tough, it's a woven TPU, so ⁓ it's actually ⁓ similar material to what's used in lifeboats and life vests. ⁓ and so it's it's very strong, but a sharp rock, a nail, a giant thorn.

anything like that ultimately is gonna be able to puncture it.

Hottie (11:34)
Ride feel is there any does it t transmit anything? Sh can I feel this thing at all a as I'm rolling along if I compare to when I don't have an insert or a n a normal tire involved?

Jacob Hinton (11:45)
So what we get most often with that is the first time I rode with OPTIS installed, I kept stopping thinking I had a flat because now all of a sudden you're able to ride five ten PSI less than what you were riding before. So we do get a lot of people that say, you know, like, Man, I really love it, but I kept stopping because I kept thinking that I had a flat and then, you know, after you stop two or three times you go, man, I don't have a flat, I'm just riding lower pressure 'cause I can now.

Hottie (12:12)
Does OPTIS stand for anything?

Jacob Hinton (12:15)
Odyssey Pneumatic Tire Insert System

Hottie (12:17)
well okay, that that's that's an easy one and a good good word to pronounce. Okay, well when what's available now and w and w when will the next product be available?

Jacob Hinton (12:26)
So right now we have our mountain insert available in both twenty nine and six fifty B sizing. In June ish we will have the road and gravel insert, the first iteration of that available.

Hottie (12:40)
⁓ price?

Jacob Hinton (12:41)
($89.99) Eighty nine ninety nine per wheel for the mountain one right now. Roden gravel is TBD 'cause ultimately we have to import it before we can ⁓ decide what the number's gonna be.

Hottie (12:52)
Well, very interesting product. Again, I think a lot of people went, Mm, what the heck's that? And what's that pro tour team? I mean, any time a pro tour team goes with something in a race as important as Roubaix, right, you've the phone's probably been ringing off the hook.

Jacob Hinton (13:04)
It has, yeah. We've gotten ⁓ a lot a lot of essentially what we're talking about right now. Hey, I saw this, what is it? Yep, yep. Absolutely, thank you.

Hottie (13:12)
Well, we now we know. Thanks.

Hottie (00:27)
Awesome. Which is one of the reasons we've we stopped by the booth. But tell me a little bit about Delium. I think ⁓ you know, a lot of the public may not be totally familiar with the brand name. Where's it where's it come from? How long's it been around? What do they have? What do they specialize in?

Jason Gainey (00:43)
Well, so Delium is a manufacturer out of Indonesia. They've been around since the fifties. started doing tires in the seventies and we've actually been making tires for bike companies for quite a few years. You've probably ridden a tire or two that Delium has produced. ⁓ about four years ago they decided to go ahead and come out with their own brand Delium. So while people haven't necessarily heard of the name yet, they have ridden tires that we've produced for quite some time.

the good chance of it. ⁓ and so we've been out for about four years, like I said. ⁓ we've been, you know, coming out with new models. We make some ⁓ gravel tires, mountain bike tires, we make some e bike tires, ⁓ some fat tires, stuff like that. ⁓ and we do a mix of ⁓ retail and OEM.

Hottie (01:31)
Is it all off or primarily off-road tire?

Jason Gainey (01:34)
Delium does not make a road tire. However, we do as a ⁓ company make road tires. So we are focused on ⁓ off road. So we do mountain bike, we do gravel, we do some ⁓ like e-bike and e-moto tires, some of the fatter tires as well, like you see on Super seventy three's and stuff, as well as we ⁓ have ⁓ some tires we create for other brands, like I said.

Hottie (02:00)
yeah, but your gravel tires get down to almost road width, I see over there. Okay, so

Jason Gainey (02:05)
Yeah, they're in that thirty-five to forty-five range.

Hottie (02:08)
Okay, which is the new ri that's the new road width. So

Jason Gainey (02:10)
Right, right. And we we have a tire that, you know, has a smooth center that ⁓ can roll pretty fast. but they definitely lean towards having a little more grip for gravel or kind of sandy trails and stuff like that.

Hottie (02:21)
Well the reason I stopped by the booth, I was invited to the booth is you folks have a technology that well look, I used to be an automotive, right? And back in the day when I would sell tires, there were two kinds of tires to sell. There were bias ply tires and the new thing was radial tires, right? And if you got radial tires, wow, you were you were something. That was the better tire to have, better gas mileage, better performing tire. But that was on cars and bikes, we seem to have been in this space of essentially bias-ply tires for a long time. And I've always wondered, in fact I've asked our our co-host, our mar, chief marginal gainer Josh Portner, who's been in the tire and wheel business for a long time, like, why no radial tires with bicycles? So, why no radial tires and bicycles? Where have they been? And what are you guys trying to do to solve that?

Jason Gainey (03:15)
That's a great question. I mean, 'cause I actually have an off-road background as well. And you know, I always woke up in the morning to drive my my wheeling rig and the tires would bounce for five or ten minutes till they warmed up and they'd smooth out and and you know, and now radials, what what I found in off roading, I'm gonna kinda go to your car thing is you know, you there's a different kind of compliance when you're running low air pressure in a car. ⁓ and so the bias ply can be valuable.

but what ultimately happens is like you like what you talked about is you know, you don't have as good a ride, it doesn't roll as well. ⁓ also the ability when you're doing your ⁓ front to rear, you know, like to keep to make the mileage last. You know, radials you can do crisscross back and forth, bias could only go front to back, you could not switch sides. There's a lot of little things. So you're just getting a tire that has a wider range of ability. And I think, you know, you also gotta think about that when we're doing it on a bike tire, it's a little bit different approach than car, ⁓ because of a more rounded carcass rather than a carcass that runs straight across the center. So the benefits work differently and they're actually more advantageous in my opinion to traction than they are with a car tire. ⁓ just because of that curve in the in the top of the and the way it's able to push in, ⁓ more than a you know, more of a flat car tire. So there's some good benefits to it. It's surprising to me as well. It hasn't happened sooner. I think it's one of those things where, you know, wherever the focus is in the moment with mountain biking, that's where all the the R and D goes and the energy goes. And, you know, somebody was smart enough to go, we should try this. And ⁓ and the best thing is now it got everybody on it. And I think what you're gonna see is even better versions of the radio than people thought they were we were gonna have with the first stuff we saw.

Hottie (05:07)
So you folks now have a radial tire available for sale? Or how many models do you have that are radio?

Jason Gainey (05:13)
Radial.

That's correct. So we have two tread patterns we're currently ⁓ we're coming out with right here at Sea Otter that are ⁓ both radial casing. Yes. So we have our rugged and our versatile and our reinforced casing, which is our heavier enduro casing. we will be having more coming out in the future.

Hottie (05:31)
Yeah. The explanation that was given to me for why radial has not worked so far on bike tires is that it can be very hard to create stability in the bike tire with the radial casing, which wants to wander and squish a little too much. And in a bicycle you need something, since there's so much going down on a small contact badge, right, you need more sidewall stability to keep that tire in place and on the rim.

How how have you folks first of all, I mean, I think it it says something that you've started in a more ⁓ trail type, I guess in duro section of tire that you're able to t able to do that. Like that at that type of tire, you know, you're less worried about high speed and high speed cornering and you're more worried about traction.

Jason Gainey (06:19)
Yeah, I think there's a benefit to the heavier casings helping with that a little bit. ⁓ so you know, more of an enduro casing over a lighter trail casing. The other thing is simply understanding that, you know, what the higher pressures are doing for you. What you're gonna see across the board is higher pressures ran in radial and getting, you know, the consumer to understand that you need this higher pressure to have the support in the tire while we still have compliance vertically.

On that tread because of the radial design. So the interesting thing is a lot of it can be held up by consumer not understanding and and and knowing what's going on. So we need to have this higher pressure. You know, you're seeing on our bias tires, if you want to call them that, you were seeing me run around twenty-six to twenty-eight in the front and twenty-seven to twenty-nine in the rear. And I'm a pretty aggressive rider. I understand how to push in to compressions to create grip and traction and acceleration.

So, you take a rider like that, and they're gonna have to be pushing into the 30s. So, I'm generally running around thirty to thirty-one in the front now and thirty-two to thirty-three in the rear. And I'm still getting the traction. I'm a P and W rider, that's where I live. So, on wet roots, ⁓ off camber, wet rocks, things like that. The grip is still there and it just becomes the situation with the consumer of getting them to trust these higher pressures work. ⁓ it's the biggest thing I've seen in talking to people with some radials that are already out and finding out they're running too low a pressure, they feel wobbly, they don't really know what to do with it. And it and it's getting them to understand that our air pressure is now really our focus for support and trusting that the grip is there because of our new casing. You know, these radial semi radials really are are what's happening here.

Hottie (08:06)
In the last ten more years we've been pushing everyone, go lower pressure, go lower that's the...

Jason Gainey (08:11)
Well and yeah and people call and moreover, people have been trying to do it in really interesting ways. And a couple examples I'll give you is ⁓ you know they'll run run trying to run lower pressure. So, you know, a wider rim or you know, a bigger tire to create more volume so they can get the air down or using inserts because then they can run their pressure lower but what they don't realize is it changes the consistency of the sidewall support when you start having foam or something pushing into your sidewall.

So, there's a lot more going on there and you know, I would argue, you know, people have been trying to find grip the wrong way instead of creating a more consistent way to get it with the right tire.

Hottie (08:52)
So, if I get my pressure correct on a radial tire, on your radial tire, right, what what performance benefit is there in that tire once I've got it correct?

Jason Gainey (09:02)
So, when you get it correct, you're now getting a more consistent sidewall support as you drive through corners. And so it's you're you're gonna have a a consistent flex that pushes over and rebounds smoothly while still having vertical compliance through the tread pattern. So it's gonna create a bigger, more open contact patch because of that, as well as because of this radial, the way the casing is now made. I'm gonna have more vertical damping, so it's gonna be easier on my hands.

So I'm basically gonna end up with with proper pressures, more predictable cornering, especially noticed in flat cornering or hard compression corners. I'm gonna notice more vertical compliance, so my hands are gonna feel a little less fatigue, even though I'm on these higher pressures. You know what I mean? So you're gonna get these these clear benefits that you know everything feels different when you try something new, and you gotta get a little time to feel these things. The more aggressive you of a rider you are.

I believe the more benefit you're gonna see in a radial.

Hottie (10:05)
The other knock I've heard on radial bike tires is that well the sidewall protection. They,  they're prone to cuts. Have you folks been able to solve for durability?

Jason Gainey (10:18)
⁓ I would say who's telling you this, I don't actually agree. Okay. I mean, what I can say is, I know what our bias is, we're gonna call it did, and I know what our radial does, and I've had no difference in issues of puncture resistance, and we didn't create a heavier tire, which means we didn't do something to try to manage that. We do have a couple of unique things like the Apex, which helps protect like pinch pinch flats, but with these pressures you should shouldn't see an issue.

What I do see an issue with is again, people trying to run a radial at too low of a pressure. I think that is going to be the biggest challenge for consumers is to trust these higher pressures they need to run. I've talked to a couple people that are general consumers riding radials, and my first question is always, What pressure are you running? And if they have a little bit of faith in me, I say, Try this. Give it a week, get a feel for it, you're gonna be surprised. So, it really goes back to that. I don't see this real issue with radial. Maybe a radial that came out already is having that issue, but I I'm not seeing it with ours and I and I don't think it's ultimately gonna be a problem.

Hottie (11:24)
Is there anything in particular about setup, whether it be running sealant, getting them to to seat onto current tubeless rims, running a insert that that might be different with these tires or is everything pretty much the same there?

Jason Gainey (11:38)
it's it's pretty similar. I mean they mount just the same. I mean it's still a bead, you know. It, I think mounting has a lot more to do with, you know, the rim manufacturer and if they understand, you know, how to help a tire press up with air pressure. There's a lot of rims that seat super easy. There's a couple brands that I find are a bit challenging. ⁓ so that really is the same. As far as inserts, I've I ran them for for years and and I'm happy to say that I don't run anymore.

⁓ so I think you're gonna see a lot of radials being able to more commonly be run without an insert. And the higher pressure, and here's the bigger thing you gotta really when you think about inserts. And I'm gonna use a brand that I actually like quite a bit, but as an example is Cushcore. They're a foam insert that sits out wider than the rim. So now think about you have a let's say two and a half inch sidewall area that we're talking about here flexing in a corner, for example.

If I have that foam pushing out on the bottom third of that carcass, that sidewall, when my tire gets pushed over through a corner, the bottom third is getting held back. And now I'm creating instead of three inches to have a smooth flex, I'm getting like two inches. Cause that first that first bit is getting held back by the foam. So again, creating a less consistent feel in the sidewall through corners and stuff. And that becomes even more so of a problem when we go back to the consumer that.

Their idea behind running a Cushcore is to lower the pressure for grip. And now they're running an even lower pressure and that that problem is exasperated. So, you know, you're gonna actually find when you talk to like high level riders and stuff, even when they run cushcore, they're actually running pretty high pressures because ultimately we want that sidewall support when we're driving into stuff. And so a lot of punctures I think that are happening with radials, it it may be t going back to that is people are still trying to run that super light pressure and that's actually what's causing the punctures. They're not matching the air pressure needed for these tires. They're running them on bias supply pressures and that's where they're having the problem. Make sense?

Hottie (13:50)
was there another sense, sure. was there anything special with the rubber compound you did to match up with this new carcass at all, or is it pretty much as w something you would use on a this normal tire quoting?

Jason Gainey (14:03)
Yeah, this is a ⁓ this is basically a casing change. You know, our compounds are still consistent. You know, that what you're asking of the knob specifically for grip compared to the the casing support and dynamic movement is kind of I'm not gonna say two separate things, they all blend, but this focus has been on creating a radial carcass for more compliance, less fatigue, better support.

Hottie (14:29)
For now it's in your kind of gravity oriented models, ⁓ I think right? What what would it take to to take radio to the next step to something more trail oriented or even cross country?

Jason Gainey (14:42)
I think that's a great question. I think what I would be curious of is, you know, some real testing on rolling resistance and rolling speed. You know. ⁓ so I think, you know, it's gonna be a a question of like what kind of pressures are we running in an XC tire, you know, what ⁓ what are we looking for in it? ⁓ so, I think that's something wait and see. Can't tell you everything right now, right? Well you well, since my boss is over there somewhere, I might get in trouble. Hi boss. Yeah

Hottie (15:11)
Hey, well thanks for explaining radial tires to us. It's always been a mystery to me why we didn't see more of these out there, why we didn't see more companies trying this. but at least we got, we have, a nice attempt, right?

Jason Gainey (15:24)
Yeah, and I think we're noticing at Sea Otter this year, a lot of brands are attempting it now. So it'll be really fun to see, you know, where it is this year and where it is in three years. ⁓ but I'm excited about it as a rider. I love ⁓ you know, and I I think they do what they need to do and they make riding better. They make you more confident. So there's I think radial's all good and I think it's where we're gonna see the industry go. Cool. Yeah, thanks for your time.

Hottie (15:48)
All right, thanks so much. Enjoy the show.